Passenger Switching Duties @ KCUS

[yardmaster]

Folks -
Does anyone have info on what type of steam power would have been used for swtiching at Kansas City Union Station c. 1943?

I'm gonna guess that KCT power didn't do the job, since the Frisco didn't use the terminal coach yards.

Thanks, in advance, for any info (and, if anyone can point me to other sources for ATSF switching power, that will make my son quite happy!).

Best Regards,

[meteor910]

Were either of the two Frisco Baldwin VO-660's ever assigned to KC? I know at least one of them was used here in StL in passenger switching for some time early in its service life.

Ken

[frisco1522]

Poor Ken has trouble identifying with steam engines. I think there's a 12 step program to get off of diesels.
I've seen photos of 36-3700 class 0-6-0s at KC, and have several shots of 2-8-0s pulling the road engine and train back tot he Frisco from thestation. Mostly low numbered 1200s.

[meteor910]

I admit to being a hopeless diesel addict! Poor Don has been working with me on the 12-step recovery program for over twenty years, and I've only made it up to step six or seven! Still a long way to go for sure.

I kept asking him when he was running SLSF 1522 at speed if he was in "Run 8", and if he used dynamic braking on her as he went down Rolla Hill into Newburg. I guess there is little hope for me.

But, I do freely admit that the Frisco's steam locomotives were pretty darn neat. See, maybe there is still hope. After all, I do still roster SLSF 1519 and SLSF 1522 here on the home road! Plus, there is a Frisco 0-6-0 in the finishing shop, though I'm selling off my 1400-class 4-6-0. See, I do know how to describe these steamers - I've never called a Frisco 1500 Mountain a "2-D-A" unit! Maybe there IS hope for my recovery?

But - those "Racehorse" E7's and E8's were pretty neat as well. I like F units, FA units and U-boats, too!

I'm trying. Now, about those SLSF Baldwin VO-660's; where did the Frisco use them during their service life? I think they started off in St Louis, and ended their service in Pensacola. Where were they in between?

Ken

[yardmaster]

As it pertains to steam vs. diesel - all I can say is that I'm glad I've seen the light! :)

Thanks for the lead; I'm not sure why I didn't research it first. There's a photo in Frisco Power of #3748 in KCMO in 1941, and I think I'm smitten...that coal hopper looks fun to model, and even feasible for a dolt like me who seems to have 10 thumbs.

I've an old IHC 2-8-0 over which I've been hem-hawing as to whether it would make a better 1200 or one of the StLM&SE 956-965 class switchers. From what I know the latter stuck around N. Springfield, but I like they way they look.

[TAG1014]

Ken--Did you like the hi-hood b/y U-25's 801-808? Me, being the mandarin and white hater, would condescend to allow them on my RR. But I think I'd need a four-unit lash-up...

Tom

[meteor910]

Tom -

You bet! SLSF 800-807, the eight original U25b's on the Frisco - all in b/y with high short hoods, were so ugly they were attractive.

I've seen a couple of scratch builds in HO that weren't too bad (one was SLSF, one was UP). Since the model manufacturers are doing DL109's and ALCo high-hoods now, I'd sure like to see one of them do a high hood U25b as well. Bowser/Stewart?????

I recall from my sophomore or junior year at MSM, I heard this strange chugging sound coming up Rolla Hill from Newburg mid-day as I headed for lunch. I walked over to the depot to wait for it to come by to see just what it was. There came four of the HH U25b's around the bend at the end of Pine Street and on by the depot with a long freight heading to StL. Ugh!!! I had read in Trains that the SLSF had them, but I had never seen them. I don't recall ever seeing them again in Rolla, but did catch them now and then at Lindenwood (in o/w decor) in later years.

Ken

[FriscoFriend]

When I spoke with the Stewart Rep at the OKC Train Show and he told me they were making the U25b, he lamented at the fact that they couldn't do a black version because their shell was for a Phase IV locomotive of which buy the time they were purchased the Frisco had changed over to O&W.

Bob Hoover
FriscoFriend

[meteor910]

No doubt a high-hood GE U25b would require a new body shell casting, even from Bowser/Stewart. I think even the Frisco and UP HH U25b's had a few differences.

I thought the original Stewart U25b came out in two phases - the second one being the Phase IV, with the sloped low short hood. Those did come from GE in o/w. The first Stewart U25b model, however, had the flat low short hood, and these versions were delivered to the SLSF from GE in b/y. What phase was that? I have one of each somewhere here - I'll have to check to see if the two phases were different aft of the cab from each other, and if the long hood resembles that of the earlier HH.

I wonder if Bowser/Stewart is going to consider releasing an updated version using the earlier body phase they did. That one could be in Frisco b/y.

Ken

[Rick McClellan]

I was just going through my Railroad Quarterlies and saw a photo of the KC-Florida Special backing in towards KC Union Station about 1948. It appears to be going by the KCT yard water tower on Southwest Blvd but I can't be certain.

The tracks at KCUS are through tracks and it never occurred to me that mainline SLSF passenger trains would back their consist into the terminal area.

This raises a few questions.

1. Is the caption on this photo accurate? Did the KC-Florida Special back into KCUS?

2. If the KC-Florida Special backed into the station, did all other southbound mainline trains (like the Firefly) back into KCUS.

3. If these trains backed into KCUS where did they wye the train? Somewhere around Tower 4?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can unravel this mystery. I may need to start backing my KC bound passenger trains into KCUS staging.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

[yardmaster]

I was just going through my Railroad Quarterlies and saw a photo of the KC-Florida Special backing in towards KC Union Station about 1948.

Wow, that shifts my rather limited paradigm. I think most photos I've seen are early 50s photos of redbirds facing east, having pulled through and under the train shed.

Might have to tweak my track plan if this was more standard than I'd presume (it'll look odd having it run through the 12th Street area and the West Bottoms otherwise!).

Thanks for the info, Rick...

[gbmott]

Ken

Going back to your question of a couple days ago regarding the VO-660's 60-61, they spent some time on the Central Division working out of Fayetteville, presumably servicing the Bentonville Branch as well as local switching in the Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers area. They would come to Fort Smith for periodic inspections and maintenance and I would see and photograph them there. I don't recall specifically when that was, but think it must have been late-50's or even very early 60's. Prior to that there had always been one of the 44ton units up there with probably the 3-spot serving the longest.

Much more interesting, however (nod to Don) was the small fleet of 3700 0-6-0's kept at Fort Smith that were unique (as far as I know) in having their headlights centered on the smokebox door. Very classy little locomotives.

Gordon

[meteor910]

I have the Stewart Frisco VO-660 kit, SLSF 601, but haven't built it yet. (The two VO-660's, SLSF 600 & 601, were renumbered to SLSF 60 & 61 to make room for additional Frisco GP7's numbered SLSF 600 and up).

I did build the Stewart VO-660 they did for the Terminal RR of StL, TRRA 533, in gray of course. Nice model! I like it even better than the Stewart VO-1000's.

My problem with the Stewart Frisco VO's (and the DS44-1000) is with their letterinjg and numbering fonts. Way too thick. I re-decaled the Frisco VO-1000 I did, SLSF 213, with Microscale decals and it looks pretty good. Stewart's striping and other markings are fine.

Ken

[frisco1522]

The 61 spent some time on the Salem Branch after dizmalization. I have a photo somewhere of my bro in law on it (He fired on the branch during late steam early dizmal years).

[meteor910]

Don -

What steam power did they use on the Salem Branch "pre-dizmal" - 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's? There weren't any 0-6-0's in mid-Missouri, were there?

Ken

[frisco1522]

We had 0-6-0s at Lindenwood as well as 2-8-0s.
Early on the Salem Branch used 2-6-0s (300s) and later on 2-8-0s in the 800 series and later the 970s and 980s.

[meteor910]

Don - So there likely were never any Frisco 0-6-0's assigned to Newburg? They must have always used the smaller, older road power to both switch and run locals out of there. There probably wasn't much switching needed - just to assemble the locals, and later, to do the same for the Ft Wood runs.

Were the 2-6-0's and/or 2-8-0's used on the Salem Branch based out of Cuba, or did they come up from Newburg for the Salem runs?

Ken

[gbmott]

Ken

You are inadvertantly tweaking all kinds of Fort Smith memories. SLSF 213 was the one-and-only switch engine in Fort Smith throughout the period from the late-50's to the mid-60's. We only really ever had three resident diesel switchers -- ALCO S-2 292 (before it had an accident and became a calf) came to us new and I actually have an extremely poor negative I took of it switching the passenger train with a 1040 behind it. It was replaced in the early 50's by SW-7 304, and then finally VO-1000 213. Of the three, 213 was probably there the longest. I'd still trade all three of them for 3744!

Which reminds me of early in the residency of 292 being down at the yard office on the switching lead watching them trying to make a drop (also known as a flying switch) of a car. They must have tried half a dozen times before they finally succeeded -- they were all used to the acceleration of a 3700 and didn't understand that "dizmals" weren't quite up to the task.

Ain't trivia great!

Gordon

[meteor910]

Gordon -

Good memories.

The VO-1000 could pull anything, but I'm not sure how good they were at rapid acceleration. Given the VO being a low RPM engine, they might not be able to win many drag races.

Lee Buffington told me that on the four-stack VO-1000's, you could see individual puffs of exhaust come out of each stack as the engine went through its cylinder firing order.

Ken

[meteor910]

Much more interesting, however (nod to Don) was the small fleet of 3700 0-6-0's kept at Fort Smith that were unique (as far as I know) in having their headlights centered on the smokebox door. Very classy little locomotives.

Gordon -

I don't have many pics of the 3700's, nor are there many in the books. Do you or any others have pics of the 3700's with the headlights centered on the smokebox? That would be neat to see.

Ken

[Karl]

See my response in Red


I was just going through my Railroad Quarterlies and saw a photo of the KC-Florida Special backing in towards KC Union Station about 1948. It appears to be going by the KCT yard water tower on Southwest Blvd but I can't be certain.

The tracks at KCUS are through tracks and it never occurred to me that mainline SLSF passenger trains would back their consist into the terminal area.

This raises a few questions.

1. Is the caption on this photo accurate? Did the KC-Florida Special back into KCUS?

Which issue is it? I am skeptical. The Frisco delivered/retrieved its psgr trains to/from KCUS with yard engines.

2. If the KC-Florida Special backed into the station, did all other southbound mainline trains (like the Firefly) back into KCUS.

They were pulled tail first by yard engines.

3. If these trains backed into KCUS where did they wye the train? Somewhere around Tower 4?

Entire consists were not wyed. Individual cars such as RPO-baggage, lounges with solarium-like rear windows, and the like were turned on the turntables at 19th street. As the car cleaners at 19th street went through the coaches, the seats were rotated or flipped.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can unravel this mystery. I may need to start backing my KC bound passenger trains into KCUS staging.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

[frisco1522]

Ken, never say never. I have a photo of one of the 0-6-0s at Newburg, and I'm sure they switched there. After all, the 1200s-1300s weren't always used as yard power since they worked the mainline.
The Salem Branch engines tied up at Cuba by the turntable.

[Rick McClellan]

Karl,

Thanks for the info on the passenger operation at KCUS. I will check my Railroad Quarterly tonight to get you the details on the issue/vol/date in question.

I have a few more questions if you don't mind.

Since yard engines pulled the trains in tail first,

1. Where did the road power cut off from the train and the switcher take over? 19th St Yard?

2. Was this a fast operation because the passengers were still on board, right?

3. I am guessing that they used a VO1000 to do the switching in the 1947-50 timeframe unless you specify otherwise.

4. Also guessing that the road power for south bounds would back into Union Station an onto their train, right?

Thanks for your help. The actual operation is much more interesting that just taking the train engine-first to Union Station.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

[Karl]

Here’s the drill… at least during the 60’s.

Northbound Frisco passenger trains arrived at KCUS, and they stopped with the train pointed eastward. The passengers disembarked. The working baggage/express car(s) was emptied of the checked baggage and express; the RPO was emptied of its mail. When this had been completed, and if the train had cars of sealed mail or sealed express, a KCT locomotive would cut these cars from the train. The train would be re-assembled. After this operation had been completed, a Frisco yard engine would drag the whole shebang to 19th Street , where the cars would be cleaned and serviced; the motive power would likewise be serviced.

After the cars and motive power had been serviced at 19th Street, the outbound train was reassembled with power, and pulled back to KCUS by a Frisco yard engine. The train was pointed westward. Once back at KCUS, outbound cars of sealed express or sealed mail were added to the train. Outbound mail was loaded to the RPO, and express destined for Frisco points was loaded to the working express/baggage car. Checked baggage was loaded, the passengers boarded, and the train departed.

I have several “pamplets” which cover the operating agreement between the Frisco and the “transportation unions”. As I recall, they stated that KCUS is the originating/terminating point for passenger crews. Consequently, I believe that the 1960’s practice was similar to other post-war periods

I don’t know what locomotives were used during the late 40’s-early 50’s. During the early 60’s, the Baldwin VO’s handled the KCUS transfer.

This operation was unique to the Frisco and only one other KC road, who serviced their own passenger equipment.

[Rick McClellan]

Karl,

Great information. Thanks for helping me out. This is more work for my operating crews and I think they will find it very interesting.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

[yardmaster]

Simply splendid info, Karl - I'm already picturing how it's going to look on the layout. Many thanks,

[slsfrr]

>>>This operation was unique to the Frisco and only one other KC road, who serviced their own passenger equipment.<<<

Karl,

Was the other railroad ATSF?

Jerome

[Karl]

You may be correct about that. I can't remember for certain what the other RR was. The ATSF does seem to strike a memory chord of being the other RR.

[gbmott]

Ken

I posted a photo of 3744 to "Gordon's Album"/. It was taken in Fort Smith in 1945, probably by Charles Winters.

Gordon

[meteor910]

Gordon - You are correct, 3744 is good looking little puppy! Thanks.

Ken

[yardmaster]

You may be correct about that. I can't remember for certain what the other RR was. The ATSF does seem to strike a memory chord of being the other RR.

Rick and Karl, I believe you're correct - here's a snippet from the KCT section of the "Fallen Flags" site:

The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railroad maintained their own coach yard just west of Santa Fe Junction at tower #3, known as the Fifth Street Yard. A train arriving at the station that was to go to the yard was met by a switchman/pilot. After unloading, the inbound engine crew and the pilot would take the train to the coach yard. Then the engine crew would take the engine to the Argentine roundhouse. The Santa Fe maintained this yard until 1969 when they and the Terminal Railway signed an agreement for the Terminal to take over the switching and servicing of equipment.

Best Regards,

[Rick McClellan]

Karl,

First a correction. I said earlier that I found a photo of a Frisco train backing into KCUS in a publication called Railroad Quarterly. The publication is actually Locomotive Quarterly. It was the Summer 1995 issue, Vol XVIII, Number 4, page 22.

The exact caption is

"Mountain 1522 eases slowly backward toward Kansas City Union Station with the equipment of Train 105, The Kansas City-Florida Special, July 3, 1947." The photo is by F. Wesley Krambeck.

I am guessing 105 is backing up through the KCT yard next to Southwest Blvd but you and others may have better bearings than I.

If you have this publication, check it out and tell m3 what you think.

Ship IT on the Frisco!

Rick

[frisco1522]

I think you're right about the location. I have shots of a couple of other engines doing the same thing. I need to hunt them up and post them. Seems like there's a water tank in one of them that would help you KCites identify the location.