Replacement of the Wabco horns with Leslies

[friscomike]

Howdy,

I recall seeing photos of several FA's with Leslie three or five chime horns on one side. Does anyone know what year they began replacing the horns with Leslies? The photo I saw was dated in the 50's. I couldn't tell if the horns were three or five chime sets.

Any clarification would be most helpful.

Best Regards,
mike

[Volatone]

According to the late Lee Buffington, Assistant CMO, the road's air horn replacement program took place in late 1952 through early 1953. All road classes were affected excepting those already equipped with the Nathan M5 five chime horn. The Leslie Supertyfon model S5T five chime became a standard application that continuied to BN merger. Ron

[friscomike]

Howdy Ron,

Thanks, that is exactly what I need to know.

Best,
mike

[meteor910]

Is there anything better out there (HO) than the long available Cal-Scale #190-316 5-chime horn detail part to represent the Leslie S5T that the Frisco used on their F's, E's and FA's?

I think over time the Cal-Scale mold has degraded, such that this 5-chime horn no longer looks as good as it once did. The horns on my Athearn F7 and T-M FA that I did in the early 1980's look better than the new Cal-Scale #316 pieces I have purchased recently.

Or ..... maybe I'm just getting old and cranky!

Anybody have any ideas?

Ken

[Karl]

Details West makes a decent part.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/235-191

[meteor910]

Karl -

Thanks. Indeed, the DW 191 (5-chime) and 190 (3-chime) Leslie's are nice castings. I've used them both a lot on 2nd generation Diesel units. But, both of these have one or two of the horn bells facing to the rear.

The horn I'm talking about (Cal Scale 316) has all five bells facing forward, as the Frisco used on their F, FA and E-units. I'm not aware DW has a similar 5-bell forward casting. Wish they did - it would look better than today's Cal Scale 316.

Ken

[FriscoFriend]

I would like to add an intriguing twist to this discussion in the fact that it looks like the GP15's had five chime horns when they were delivered, but with all five facing forward. When I got my Overland Brass ones this is the way they came and I first thought it was wrong, but after studying some photos, it looks like that was correct. The real puzzling thing to me is that these locos were delivered to replace GP7's on remote branch lines sometimes operating as single units. Molo's book also shows some GP38's that look like they have 5 chime horns, all facing forward. Can anyone else shed some light on this?
Bob Hoover
FriscoFriend

[meteor910]

Bob -

I have just stared at my file pics of the Frisco GP15-1's until I was Mandarin Orange in the face! It seems to depend on the specific unit, but you are correct - several of them appear to have all five horn trumpets facing forward! I never noticed that. Several others appear to be like the DW 191 horn with three forward/two to the rear. One, a poor shot, looked like it had a three chime on it - two forward/one to the rear (like the DW 190).

They might have changed horns through the years - my pics are not dated. The Frisco took delight in doing that to us!

I'm wondering about the five forward horns - the GP15-1 made use of trade-in parts from F-units, such as the trucks. I wonder if they also grabbed the horns off of some of the old F-wagons, painted them orange, and set them atop the new GP15-1's? Anybody have any ideas?

I spruced up the Walthers GP15-1 SLSF 105 model a few years ago and used the DW 191 horn. My pics of SLSF 105 show it with this horn. Though the Walthers color on the model is too red, the thing turned out looking really well when adorned with the appropriate detail parts and some accent painting. Adding the nose gyralite gives it a nice touch. It also runs pretty well for an inexpensive locomotive. They can be had for not much $$ at swap meets.

Ken

[Volatone]

Ken and gang, I have a Frisco Mechanical Department Manual of Standards For Locomotive Maintenance and Servicing sheet issued July 1974. It states," NOTE: Whistles used on the Frisco are to have all five horns facing forward." The directive would have covered the 100-124 GP15s delivered in '77.
As for the Frisco recycling the five chime Leslies, there is photo evidence in Mare/Harper FRISCO DIESEL POWER. On page 110 you'll find the 118 with a recycled Leslie. The factory welded two piece center trumpet or bell seen in the photo is one of the features of the earlier Leslies. Hope this helps. Ron

[meteor910]

Thanks, Ron - interesting. Is there any chance you could post a scan of the standards sheet to the forum? It would be a good reference.

There is, however, considerable photo evidence that many of the Frisco GP15-1's had a five-chime Leslie mounted with three bells forward and two to the rear (as with the DW 191 in HO), at least that's the way they were at the time of the pic. No evidence that they came new that way.

Ken

[w3hodoug]

I seem to remember the old X-2200 South issues on horns giving the musical notes for those Leslie 5-chime horns as an A7 inverted about the C# (third) with the C# doubled in octaves. Try this chord on your piano and test it against your memory:

From the bottom note, a half step above middle C:

C#
E
G
A
C#

Doug

[TAG1014]

Doug--I'm trying to figure out how to make that A7th chord on the guitar--Where is "middle C" in relation to that chord? Half step below the top or bottom note?

Thanks, Tom

[w3hodoug]

Half step below the bottom note.

[Volatone]

Thanks, Ron - interesting. Is there any chance you could post a scan of the standards sheet to the forum? It would be a good reference.

There is, however, considerable photo evidence that many of the Frisco GP15-1's had a five-chime Leslie mounted with three bells forward and two to the rear (as with the DW 191 in HO), at least that's the way they were at the time of the pic. No evidence that they came new that way.

Ken
Ken, attached is the standards sheet in question. Ron

[meteor910]

Thanks Ron!

Ken

[wm7473]

...actually, w3hodoug's chord is more for a Nathan Airchime M5, or a P5 (which is what became Rock Island's standard).....Frisco's chimes were Leslie S5's, such as Santa Fe used on their passenger F7's...a lovely sounding horn when they worked properly....several websites out there about air horns, but a couple nice ones are http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/, or www.dieselairhorns.com (http://www.dieselairhorns.com) make sure you have a good set of external speakers!!

[friscochoctaw]

Those are nice sites, but they don't help me. Does anyone know what the tuning of the bells (trumpets) of the old Leslie S-5T-F? What I have found thus far online has been close but no cigar.

[klrwhizkid]

You might try asking on the following forum, there's a guy that has been working on some:
http://www.hornwhistleboard.com/viewtopic.php?p=20299
or here:
http://www.hornwhistleboard.com/viewtopic.php?p=21533

[wmrx]

The following info is from the Five Chime Consultants website http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/

Factory tuning for an S-5T was: B major 9th (B,D#,F#,A,C#).


Kevin Love

[friscochoctaw]

I'm talking about the S-5T-F, full-orface horn... the links helped some, so THANKS, but now it's just waiting on time and those that have the information...

[wmrx]

John, I don't understand what it is that you are looking for. All Leslie S-5T type horns had the same bells. The full orifice horn would sound a lot louder or possibly more harsh, but the notes from each bell should be the same as any other horn of this type. The bells and manifold are the same castings for any variety of S-5T. The only difference between an S-5T and an S-5T-F is the size of the opening in the internal orifice dowel pins.

[friscochoctaw]

Thanks, Kevin, for staightening me out on the matter. I have limited knowledge on the topic and am trying to change that.

I suppose part of the problem is one cannot replicated the sound of air blowing through a metal bell with that of a piano's hammer striking a steel or copper wire...

I went to the hornwhistleboard site and asked around and was told:
"255CPS (between B&C), 311 D#, 370 F#, 440 A, 554 C#.
I've hear many variations where the #25 bell blows lower or more sharp," by handle: José

[friscochoctaw]

These are a couple of YouTube videos that feature the specific horn I was refering to:

-1953 Leslie S-5T-F on the SARM Secret City Scenic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll5usrcPURM

-1954 Frisco Leslie SuperTyfon S-5TF Locomotive Air Horn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ncqtWtnlW0&p=17F26B28BD449067&playnext=1&index=44

They seem a bit melancholic... but this is my favorite horn, next to the K5LA, even if it is a Nathan.

[wmrx]

The length and internal shape of the bell determines what musical note or sound is created in an air horn. Sloppy casting, machining, assembly or any combination thereof can create a change in the sound created. Leslie has pretty good quality control, but there is always room for error. Hence, slight variations can be heard between what should be identical horns. Variations and wear in the power chamber can change the sound that is heard as well.

[Volatone]

Gang, here's one more example of the Leslie S-5T-F. This one is a fully restored 1952 S-5T-F from GP-7 #597. It was recorded as a guest horn aboard a Heart of the Heartlands excursion train in 2003. Ron