I ATTENDED THE WORLDS GREATEST HOBBY SHOW IN SAN ANTONIO LAST SATURDAY FEBRUARY 22ND. AND AS A DISCLAIMER I AM NOT SLAMMING WGH, BUT, I WAS TO SAY THE LEAST DISAPPOINTED. THERE WERE MORE LAYOUTS THAN THERE WERE VENDORS. IT WAS SAD, AND THE VENDORS THEY DID HAVE, THEIR PRICES WERE THROUGH THE ROOF. I AM WORRIED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR HOBBY. I SEEN AN OLD, BROKEN, JUNK PLASTIC BOXCAR WITH MISSING PIECES MADE BY TYCO MARKED AS VINTAGE WITH A PRICE TAG OF $26.00 NOW TO ME THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS. WHILE I LIVE ON A BUDGET WHEN I DONT HAVE A COMEDY SHOW TO DO TO SUPPLEMENT MY INCOME, THE PRICES OF THINGS HAVE SEEMED TO SKY ROCKET TO ALMOST A POINT OF OUT OF CONTROL. WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, I ATTENDED THE GREAT AMERICAN TRAINSHOW AT KEMPER ARENA IN KANSAS CITY AND MAN WAS I IMPRESSED. 2 WHOLE FLOORS OF VENDORS SELLING EVERYTHING AS FAR AS THE EYE COULD SEE. NOW GATS IS GONE AND I WONDER, WITH THE IMPRESSION I GOT, IS THERE GONNA BE ANY DECENT TRAIN SHOWS LEFT TO GO TO? HERE IN SAN ANTONIO I HAVE 2 HOBBY STORES THAT I CAN GO THROUGH TO GET JUST ABOUT ANYTHING AND ONE OF THEM IS A GROUP OF RIP OFF ARTISTS. WHERE ARE THE GRAND TRAINSHOWS I USED TO GO TO AND WHEN IS ONE COMING SO I CAN MAKE PLANS TO GO?|-|
Will: I hope others also choose to chime in here, but I for one think the hobby today is on fairly strong footing. As far as pricing and where to buy are concerned here is why I think the shows like you attended are struggling: (1) The emergence of the Internet and all of the creative options that it offers to buy and sell used and not wanted things. Two examples are of course Ebay and a lessor known but very popular Yahoo Group called HOYARDSALE. (2) Walthers selling direct to individuals and issuing a monthly sale catalog. (3) Internet Mail Order Dealers that have increasingly popped up selling everything at least 20% off. The downside to all of this is there is no storefront to go in and see the model first to check if it the right color, has the correct detail, etc. Also a place to go into and see your local modeling friends and talk trains. One must take into consideration that in the good ole' days almost all we had were Athearn blue box kits and nothing was ever done in Frisco. Now we have a multitude of beautiful RTR locomotives and rolling stock to choose from. One could go on and on but let's just say that what you saw was a "sign of the times" and it's not all bad and not a situation to worry about. Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
I agree with Bob that today's model railroading level of quality is the best in history. We are getting brass detail for a fraction of the cost of brass. In addition, we are getting more prototype specific accurate models than those expensive brass models we had even 15-20 years ago. AND who can deny what a rush sound brings to your layout? During this same period we have seen the price of plastic locomotives go from $20-40 to $150-$250 retail and cars from $5-10 to $30-40 retail. I have a decent job but I can't afford to pay retail for my equipment so I have become a pretty decent shopper for model railroad supplies. I patronize local dealers where I have good relationships with several who, in turn, provide me with a nice discount. They know that I am building a layout and buy from them on a regular basis. I also patronize a retail only store but only for a small amount of items I can't get elsewhere. I also buy on Ebay and have been fairly successful. I bought two Atlas locomotives last month for 35% off retail. That makes a $150 engine less than $100 and it's kind of fun too. I have also found an interesting secondary market among my friends who don't want to put kits together and have been buying kits that have sat on their shelves for years. That works out good for me because they discount the price to me AND I can get some models that are no longer on the market. The best attribute I think I have had in this whole process is patience. If I don't win a model at the price I want on Ebay, I simply work on some other aspect of the layout for the time being but I always keep an eye on Ebay. I was even able to land a rare SCL M-5 caboose a couple of years ago for a great price and it was painted well. Hope my experiences can help some out on the website. This is a great hobby. Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick
Rick - I do the same. Have to now, as we have lost all of our good railroad hobby shops here in StL. Those that remain aren't real good, or are far away from me. eBay has been a real asset to me for both of my hobbies - railroads and naval history. I've used eBay for about twelve years now, and you are right, it is fun. You just have to be a little careful. Over that time, I've only had one bummer purchase, and it was minor, and two deadbeats I sold to. I recovered fully from one of them, partially from the second - again minor amounts. eBay has a pretty good dispute system. Ken
"The times, they are a changin'." I fondly recall spending Thanksgiving weekends at the GATS in Collinsville, IL when my brother-in-law lived in Richmond Heights. While no vendors committed armed robbery, I will admit to acquiring a lot of...well...junk, frankly. Ignorance was not bliss. I would patronize hobby shops (I'm more of a face-to-face social buyer) but with none in Columbia and no network of modelers in town (Rick, does this lament sound familiar), I was quite pleased with the advent of online stores. One that shall remain nameless lest I seem I'm advertising for them has kept my business through decent prices, a good inventory and great service. When my wife was desperately trying to find the NMRA Official Register reprint from 1943, she saw their link and called them hoping to buy. One of their employess very patiently walked her through the steps of going to the NMRA site and finding what she wanted. Do not despair, Frisco4503. All in all, I'm quite happy with the good new days. There's certainly never been a better/easier time to network with other kindred spirits and/or share information.
I attended a WGH show in Fort Worth a couple of years ago. I thought it had a good mix of vendors and layouts. I saw Bachmann DCC diesels for $25 a pop. I nearly needed an extra seat on the Amtrak trip back to Gainesville for my ill-gotten gains......... I am pretty sure that the vendors and layouts vary from area to area, and that might explain why a show in San Antonio was a disappointment. John M, who still buys Atlas Frisco Geeps to restencil as CNW second-hand units
I APPRECIATE THE INPUT FROM EVERYONE! ONE THING I WAS WONDERING. NOW I UNDERSTAND THE PRICE OF VERY HIGHLY DETAILED LOCOMOTIVES THAT ARE BRASS QUALITY, WITH DCC AND SOUND AND ALL THE TRIM AND THE TRICKS, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OLD BACHMANN PLUS, ATHEARN GENESIS, AND THE OLD STUFF. THESE PEOPLE BOUGHT THIS STUFF CHEAP AND LEFT IT IN THE BOX ON A SHELF. NOW I KNOW IT IS SOMEONES GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SELL WHAT IS THEIRS FOR WHATEVER THEY WANT BUT MAN. YOU LOOK ON EBAY, IN "MY LOCAL HOBBY STORES" OR JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE AND YOU SEE THIS STUFF GOING FOR AN OUTLANDISH PRICE. THIS WEEK BUILT THE FRAMEWORK AND EVERYTHING TO START MY LAYOUT AND MY WIFE AND I HAVE BOTH SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS LATE AT NIGHT ON EBAY, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE ASLEEP, AND HAVE FOUND SOME REALLY GOOD DEALS TO GET US STARTED ON OUR 12X24 LAYOUT. USPS AND UPS WILL BE AT OUR HOUSE ALMOST EVERYDAY FOR THE NEXT 2 WEEKS. BUT, IS IT A BIT REDICULOUS TO ASK ANYWHERE OVER $50.00 FOR A STEAMER THAT JUST A FEW YEARS AGO COST $49.99 AT A HOBBYSHOP? I DONT WANNA SOUND LIKE A WHINER, BUT THIS ECONOMY HAS GOTTEN EVERYONE IN AN UPROAR. I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT IF THESE SELLERS IN OUR HOBBY FROM EVERYWHERE, KEEP THE PRICE OF THE OLD OR WHAT YOU CALL NEW OLD STOCK DOWN AND SELL THE NEW NEW STOCK FOR WHAT ITS WORTH, THINGS WOULD BE BETTER. AS AN EXAMPLE, EVER SEE THE PRICE OF A DVD AT WALMART OF A NEW RELEASE? THEY ARE USUALLY $20 DOLLARS. BUT IF YOU WAIT A WHILE, THAT DVD WILL EVENTUALLY WIND UP IN THAT GREAT BIG BIN WHERE THEY SELL DVD'S 2 FOR $11 DOLLARS. I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS LIVING IN MARYLAND WORKING FOR CSX. NOT ONLY WAS IT A TREAT FOR ME TO GET TO RIDE THE RAILS OF THE FIRST RAILROAD IN THE UNITED STATES BUT, SINCE I HAD TO DRIVE TO BALTIMORE FOR WORK, IF I GOT OFF DURING BUSINESS HOURS I WOULD TAKE A DRIVE DOWNTOWN TO M. B. KLEINS HOBBYSHOP. I WOULD FIND BARGAIN AFTER BARGAIN ON THEIR CLEARANCE SHELVES. I SLOWLY BOUGHT THE ENTIRE SET OF FRISCO FIREFLY CARS (WHICH I NO LONGER HAVE) FOR AN AMAZING PRICE. WELL UNDER THE $100 DOLLAR PRICE TAG YOU FIND ON THEM TODAY. I DECIDED TO POST THIS THREAD BECAUSE SPENDING HOURS ON EBAY SEEING THE PRICE ON BACHMANN PLUS AT $110.00 FOR A 2-8-0 AND SEEING THE PRICES OF EVERYTHING JUST GOT DEPRESSING. I WAS JUST WONDERING IF I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO FEELS THIS WAY.|-|
Trains (or anything else) at "outlandish" prices on eBay don't go anywhere unless someone is willing to pay those prices. If someone is willing to PAY the price (no matter how stupid), someone will SELL at that price! And you (us, we) just can't be worrying about it. We should let "them" (buyers OR sellers) go about their business and let's us go play with our trains... Tom
Regarding eBay - I have been a very active eBay'er for at least a dozen years or so, using it often to augment both of my hobbies - railroads and naval hstory. Generally, I have bought at fair or bargain proces, and sold at fair or bargain prices. There have been a few exceptions, but I knew it and thought it OK. You just have to use your head, and have self discipline. As Tom said, if something is listed at a crazy price, don't bid on it. eBay is so big that it, or another one, will come up again, hopefully at a better price. eBay is pure Economics 101 - supply and demand affect the price. You, as a buyer, just need to make sure it is an "efficient" market, i.e., disciplined. Ken
Another factor in the GATS/WGH show arrangements may be the way the vendors are treated. We just had our biggest annual show ever, 150+ tables. We arrange a discount at the hotel, a hot breakfast and lunch buffet are available, they can set up night before, etc. We don't cram things together and we advertise to get lots of people with kids to see the layouts and at least admire the vendor's stuff. Vendors even enter our contest. It's a positive experience for all. Maybe in the big cities that isn't the case. And they cater to a different vendor group, too. Like everyone else, I got excited about eBay at first. Now I've got Santa Fe U25's that I'll never repaint, bought when I thought I'd never find any Friscos. It will all work out, if we don't all get too old?
Will: Please don't take this wrong, but you are experiencing a trend in the hobby that most of us are well aware of. It sounds like you may be jumping into this with good intentions, but are getting frustrated. I might have a suggestion to help ease your frustration. We are all very caring people that want you to succeed so try this. (1) Identify what you think you want and are willing to pay. Remember that good items that show up on Ebay such as Black & Yellow Atlas Geeps will garner premimum prices. Other itrems that have running or accuracy issues can be gotten for way below what they originally sold for. (2) Feel free to ask on the loop about items and their worth. Most of us will help you. (3) Ask us what you may be interested in. Maybe one of us might have an extra one or two. (4) Most importantly, be patient and have fun! Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
Willie: One thing to remember about eBay is that it is an auction site. In the regard to what stuff brings it is no different than a real life auction. My suggestion to you is to bid the very first time the amount you are willing to pay for the item. Then let it go if it goes over that price. If you are not sure what it is worth ask someone here before bidding. Just a suggestion. Like I tell everyone I deal with as both a buyer and seller on eBay, Best of luck. By the way I have been using eBay since about 6 months after it started. I have had only one bad experience but even it was settled to my satisfaction. Most of all I wish you the best of luck with yoour new layout and am looking forward to seeing pictures of it. Bob Wintle
I worked in hobby shop in the early 80s and I can say that you are entering the hobby at a time when the variety is the greatest I have ever seen - the cheap stuff is still out there although at slightly higher (okay, double) prices than 1983 but the variety and quantity of quality equipment is almost staggering. Kits are still really in line with where our incomes have gone since then. I attended the WGH show here in Kansas City and I was actually pretty impressed with the overall show. The things that impressed me the most was the manufacturers displays and the people they had representing their product. These people were very, very approachable and by my reckoning, were doing their very best to develop and build interest in the hobby in all who attended and were asking questions. There were not, however, as many 'traders and bargain vendors' at this show compared to the "Train Show" that is here every year.
I have had much better results on eBay by the "sniping" technique. I have over 3000 purchases on eBay in the ten years since I signed up in '99. Some don't like sniping. But it works. Lay in the bushes until the last minute, THEN bid your highest desired amount. It has served me well, but others have their opinions based on their experiences as well.
Hi guys, Just to chime in here. I work in a plastics factory. In the last few years, costs have skyrocketed. In order to build an injection mold, prices of $100,000 and up are not unheard of. The result of this is more manufacturing going over seas. And last year, when oil went thru the roof, you should have seen what plastic prices did. We almost closed our doors because of it, and we still have not fully recovered. The " good old days" are gone, but we can be glad that our favorite road is enjoying more popularity. I guess that is what happens when you get to " fallen flag" status. Dan
WOW! HEY GUYS! THIS REALLY HELPS! WHAT I AM DOING (WHICH I LOVE A CHALLENGE! ALWAYS HAVE) IS MODELING THE FRISCO DURING THE STEAM ERA, RIGHT BEFORE THE DIESELS WERE INTRODUCED. SO FAR I HAVE A BRASS HALLMARK 4-8-4 WHICH I HAVE PAINTED AND WILL BE POSTING PICTURES OF SOON! A 2-10-0 #1632 WHICH IS BRASS ALSO WHICH SAT AT THE DEPOT IN OTTAWA KANSAS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER UNTIL THEY TOOK IT AWAY! AND I JUST GOT IN MY BACHMANN SPECTRUM 4-8-2 MOUNTAIN AND I HAVE 4 OF THE FIREFLY CARS AND A HANDFUL OF ROLLING STOCK. I HAVE PURCHASED A FEW REALLY GOOD DEALS ON TRACK AND TURN-OUTS ON EBAY, MY HOBBYSHOP AND TRAISHOWS. HERE IS MY PLIGHT! I PURCHASED A HELJAN 98 FOOT TURNTABLE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE GUYS AT THE HOBBYSHOP TELLING ME THAT MY 4-8-4 WOULD FIT. WRONG! THE FRONT PILOT WHEEL AND THE REAR WHEEL OF THE TENDER BOTH HANG OFF. SO I NEED A 105 FOOT TURNTABLE AND I FIND THEM ON EBAY FOR UPWARDS OF $200 OR MORE. MY LAYOUT, WHICH IS JUST GETTING OFF THE GROUND (LITERALLY) I JUST BUILT THE FRAMEWORK THIS LAST WEEKEND. IS 12 FEET BY 24 FEET AND THE TABLES ARE 2 FEET WIDE. THIS IS MY FIRST LAY-OUT I HAVE EVER DONE FOR MYSELF THAT BORE ANY SIGNIFICANCE WHAT SO EVER SO I AM PROUD AND SCARED ALL AT THE SAME TIME. TOURING SEASON IS ALMOST OVER UNTIL LATE THIS SUMMER FOR MY COMEDY SO I WANNA DO AS MUCH AS I CAN WHILE I HAVE THE TIME. I AM ON A LIMITED BUDGET BUT I HAVE ENOUGH TO GET A GOOD START. HOWEVER. I FIGURED I WOULD START WITH A FOCAL POINT AND WORK MY WAY OUT SO I WANTED TO START WITH MY TRAIN STATION ROUND HOUSE AND RAILYARD. I WOULD LIKE TO GET A PASSENGER STATION THAT IS VERY FRISCO PROTOTYPICAL IF THERE IS ONE OUT THERE. I HAVE ENTERTAINED THE IDEA ABOUT BUILDING ONE FROM SCRATCH BUT DONT QUITE KNOW WHERE TO START. WELL I HAVE A FEW IDEAS BUT THEY ARE EXPENSIVE ONES. I DONT WANNA GO CHEAP BECAUSE EVER SINCE BOB WINTLE, AND THE GUYS SHOWED ME THE REALLY COOL REALISTIC LOOKING STUFF I HAVE STEERED AWAY FROM PLASTICVILLE! I HAD TO MENTION MY BUDDY THERE! ANYWAY I DONT HAVE THE MEANS TO GO REALLY EXPENSIVE EITHER. SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE IS ABOUT WHERE I WANNA BE. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE TRANSITION THIS COUNTRY IS IN BUT LIKE WAS MENTIONED, DOUBLING THE PRICE OF SOMETHING THAT LOOKS ABSOLUTELY HIDIOUS TO ME ON A LAYOUT IS UTTERLY REDICULOUS. I SEE THE SAME THING HAPPENING WITH JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING NOW DAYS, HIGHER PRICES, LOWER QUALITY. I THINK I AM GONNA GO FOR INEXPENSIVE DPM AND CAMPBELL SCALE MODELS FOR MY BUILDINGS, WITH A STRAGGLING ATLAS KIT HERE AND THERE. AND BACHMANN, AND BRASS (SINCE THERE AINT MUCH DIFFERENCE IN THE PRICE NOW DAYS). IF ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY EASIER SOLUTIONS PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I WANT REALITY AS FAR A SCENERY, BUT I CANNOT SPEND A FORTUNE. ATHEARN, ATLAS, TICHY, MDC HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MY FAVORITES WHEN IT COMES TO ROLLING STOCK. THE PASSENGER CARS AVAILABLE FOR FRISCO ARENT BAD QUALITY EITHER I AM JUST STRUGGLING WITH THE PRICE JUMP. I DO HAVE AN AIR BRUSH AND ODDBALL HAS THE DECALS THOUGH. BUT I AM STILL IN SEARCH OF 2 TRAIN STATIONS, 2 TURN TABLES THAT FIT MY 4-8-4 AND FUTURE 4-8-4'S AND MY CITY SCENE WILL PROBABLY BE ABOUT 9 FEET GIVE OR TAKE. AND A SUITABLE ROUNDHOUSE. WHEN MY SHOWS COME UP, MONEY ISNT ALWAYS AN ISSUE WITH MY WIFE OR I BUT WE DO HAVE 7 KIDS BETWEEN US AND ARE LOOKING ALSO AT OUR LONG TERM FINANCIAL SITUATION. I DO HAVE A FEW SUYDAM KITS I WOULD BE WILLING TO SWAP IF THERE ARE ANY TAKERS! READING THE RESPONSES HAS REALLY PUT ME I A BETTER MOOD AND BROWSING EBAY TODAY, I AM STARTING TO THINK THAT A FEW EBAY SELLERS HEARD MY PLEA TOO. LOL THANKS GUYS! BTW, WHILE I WAS TYPING THIS, I WON A BACHMANN SPECTRUM 2-8-0 FOR $51.00 DCC EQUIPPED IS THAT A GOOD PRICE OR NOT. IT SAYS IT WAS TEST RUN ONLY.|-|
I JUST HAD TO SAY ONE MORE THING, OR TWO! BACK WHEN I STARTED IN THE HOBBY, I WAS JUST A KID AND THE GUYS AT MY TRAIN CLUB WERE VERY HELPFUL AND INFORMATIVE! LATER ON A I GOT MARRIED TO A WOMAN WHO THOUGHT A GROWN MAN PLAYING WITH TRAINS WAS JUST...WELL...CHILDISH! AFTER 14 YEARS OF BEING WITH HER WE SPLIT AND I MOVED ON AND MY WIFE NOW OF A WHOPPING 8 MONTHS THINKS MY HOBBY IS REALLY COOL! SHE HAS ATTENDED 2 TRAIN SHOWS WITH ME, AND AS I SAID BEFORE WE SIT UP AT NIGHT ON SEPARATE LAPTOPS ON EBAY AND LOOK AT EVERYTHING THERE IS IN HO SCALE. BTW DID I MENTION THE FACT THAT MY ENTIRE LAYOUT WILL BE COVERED WITH SNOW? SO WHAT WE ARE GONNA DO IS MODEL THE ENTIRE THING AS IF IT IS THE GOOD OLE SUMMERTIME AND THEN LET THE SNOW FLY! SO TO SPEAK! I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS A KID THE WINTERS WE HAD IN KANSAS WHEN YOU COULD BARELY GO ANYWHERE BECAUSE OF THE BAD WEATHER. AND MY WIFES BIRTHDAY IS THE DAY AFTER MINE SO WE THOUGHT DECEMBER, 1940 SOMETHING WOULD BE REALLY COOL! I HAVE SOME IDEAS FOR SOME MODEL RAILROADER WORTHY TRACKSIDE PHOTOS THAT I WANNA SEE COME THROUGH TO THIS LAYOUT FIRST. TOMORROW I WILL TAKE SOME PICTURES OF MY FRISCO 4-8-4 #4500 PRE-DECALED AND SEE WHAT YA'LL HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THEM! THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSES GUYS! I ALSO PUT IN AN ORDER TO ODDBALL SO IN ABOUT 2 TO 4 WEEKS I THINK I WILL HAVE THE METEOR READY TO ROLL.|-|
