Folks, This question came to mind the other night while thumbing through Joe Collias' book Frisco Power. Karl's excellent description of stand-by locomotives, along with the question as to why none of the 4300/4400 homebuilt Mountains were preserved reminded me to post. I have always wondered why the whistle was placed where it was on the 4300s. That is on top of the smokebox, lying horizontally along the center line in front of the stack. It seems that moving it from the steam dome to the front would not do that much in terms of being more audible to motorists at grade crossings or for signaling movements. From the photographic evidence I have handy on the Frisco Archive and this site, the following had the whistle placed as noted. SLSF 4303 http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1371&d=1129776988 SLSF 4304 - Locomotive is nose-down in the roundhouse turntable pit at Lindenwood Yard, St. Louis. http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1376&d=1129837097 SLSF 4305 http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1401&d=1129839098 SLSF 4310 http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1378&d=1129837260 Did any of the class ever have its whistle moved from this somewhat unusual location? Best Regards,
I cannot speak with authority, but I think it was much more audible to the front of the engine. One thing it would have done to the advantage of the enginemen is to move it away from the cab area and make it a little easier on the ears. Steam dome mounted whistles are LOUD inside the cab. It is much louder depending upon which side of the steam dome that it is mounted. On 4-8-2 SLSF 1522 it is on the fireman's side. This makes it much louder on that side, not to mention the steam blowing back when you are moving.
Don, That is good information for me to have. I would not have thought that the placement would make that big of a difference with all of the other noise. You do bring up a good point. For steam dome mounted whistles, what was the rhyme or reason, if any, for choosing the placement on the engineer's or fireman's side? Best Regards,
4300 had its whistle mounted along the boiler centerline, behind the stack, and inclined forward at about 30 degrees. There is an overhead shot of 4300 fresh from the shops in a late 1950s or early 1960s issue of Trains magazine. I will look for it. The forward position of the 4300 whistles implies that they may have been superheated.
Who-ee, that 4-8-2 SLSF 4303 picture is way cool. For years, the model magazines have gone on and on about how model steam engines should not really be painted black, but should be dark gray. SLSF 4303 is black! That engine photograph is a "centerfold" if I ever saw one! I cannot believe there is not a Spectrum, Proto, Atlas, Athearn or somebody model of a Frisco 4300, 4400 or 4500! Tom G.
I can tell you that the same thing is true of diesel locomotive horns. On the U25B low nose units, the horn was over the fireman's window, and I can tell you that it was very loud on that side of the engine. I would sometimes forget about that and, when headed east on the north track at the depot in Tulsa, I had my left ear blasted by the horn. It reverberated off the buildings just outside the cab on the north side of the tracks. The EMD units were loud in this spot also, but because they were on the roof, it was not as bad. Don is absolutely correct about the placement of the horn or whistle having a direct influence on the enginemen. The modern day rules for hearing preservation requires hearing protection in locomotives under load, with the exception of the newer units with all doors and windows closed - S-21.5. Terry
Here is a "builder's photograph" of the 4-8-2 SLSF 4300 showing the whistle behind the stack and operated by superheated steam. I have seen photographs of some of the 4-4-0s with a set of the Volotone air horns on the cab roof right above the engineer. That must have been a joy to run.
SLSF 4300 was a handsome beast indeed! I think the 4300s were the best looking Frisco steam locomotives. Anyone have any other thoughts? Ken
Indeed Tom. No mistaking that color, even in black and white film. And, I think Spectrum has a 4-8-2 numbered for a SLSF 4400, but it is a good ways off of the prototype. I swapped mine for a Spectrum 2-10-0. Best Regards,
I do not know. I sure do like the 1500s with Walschaerts and the Pacifics that had the larger sand dome and smokebox mounted bell. However, I think the 4300s are my favorites, for the reasons that they were Frisco-built, and that their construction and use of the old 2-10-2 steam domes technically constituted a pre-existing boiler rebuild. Resourcefulness at its best. And true, they were just good looking. Off topic, but I see on www.stltoday.com that they are tearing down the brick smokestacks visible north of I-44. The article says the facility was originally constructed by Scullin Steel. Ken, Do you or others know if this is where the wheels for the 4300s would have been produced? Best Regards,
I would be hard pressed to pick between the 1500s, 4300s, 4400s, and 4500s. The 4500s I believe may be the best looking 4-8-4 of all, and the streamlined Firefly. The Frisco certainly had beautifully proportioned engines. I am fortunate enough to have examples of all these engines in brass, and they are beautiful. Terry
Strangely in retrospect, maybe the Frisco would have been better served to use the whole boiler from the spot engines like they did with the 4400s. The 4300s started biting the dust early because of boiler cracks due to the nickel steel used in them. Santa Fe, Missouri Pacific and other roads had the same problems. The engineers loved the 4300s and Dad had some good stories to tell about them. The 1500s were popular also. For some reason the 4400s did not seem to be all that popular. Perhaps because of the larger cylinders and lower boiler pressure. Both classes did yeoman's service during the war.
Chris, Don Wirth, Karl Brand and I kicked this over today. As best we know, Scullin Steel only had this one fabrication plant. So yes, if that is the case, the Scullin disc drivers, such as used on SLSF 4300, would have been made there. Ken
Don, The nickel steel boiler crack information is interesting to know. Were they simply retired for scrap as this happened? Seems like rather a sad way for them to go. Ken, Don and Karl, Thanks for the clarification on Scullin Steel. Seems a shame to see another St. Louis-area landmark go, especially one with a Frisco connection. Best Regards,
