Let me preface this thread that I hate electronic/computer/tech stuff. I can't figure out why it takes three controllers to run my TV and have to yell for my daughters when I need to move from movies to watch the Royals get pounding again. I have enough track down in the West Bottoms I need to run some trains to check for shorts, etc. So it is time to buy. I will be running three sound equiped locomotives, no signals, no electronic controlled turnouts, no computer interfaces. So in the end, I need three wireless throttles, that's it. Here in KC Digitrax seems to be the preferred system. I've asked a couple of hobby shop owners. One, pretty into DCC, told me Digitrax was great if you want to be a computer programer. Another told me what I have to go through to program a locomotive with Digitrax. This lost me on about sentence 2. I have been given a recommendation for NCE Power Station. Reasonable and easy to expand with wireless and add boosters. Has anyone out there gone with NCE and can an idiot (that would be me) figure this out. None of these comments are meant to trash any system. I have heard from everyone who has given me their input they are all good, it is just a preference thing. In fact one hobby shop owner recommended Easy DCC, but uses Prodigy at home. So in the end they all work I guess. I am just trying to get a system up and running without reading a bunch of manuals. John |-|
Here is my two cents: I use the NCE power cab on my layout. I would say it's the best system out there. It has so many extra features that Digitrax and MRC don't. I've used Digitrax before on both Bob Wintle's and Rick McClellan's layouts and digitrax is a good system. I've never used MRC, but have heard its a good system also. NCE will be the best for you, especially since you get confused on electronically stuff. The Digitrax screen gives you a bunch of numbers and you have to go through a manual to figure out what it mean. NCE actually has words on the screen (mostly abbreviated, but easier to remember than numbers), plus the starter system has a walk around throttle, instead of being a box. If you want to run 3 sound loco's you will need a booster, but no big deal. You can make it wireless too. I'm running out of time before I have to leave, sorry. If need be I can continue later.
Howdy John, Your question is likely to invoke holy war, but I'll throw some gas on the fire with this comment. Digitrax requires NO computer programming. I've operated on everything Lenz to NCE, and I still prefer Digitrax. All the systems are good. It seems that folks in the north perfer NCE and those in the south prefer Digitrax, go figure. If you are just starting out, then the Digitrax Zephyr is a good system. It has a throttle and booster built together. I've used Digitrax since it first came out and have never looked back. The throttles are small and easy to use. The system is responsive. Bottom line, how much money do you have to spend? The features are pretty much the same between systems. Perhaps others who use NCE, MRC, and Lenz can chime in with the pro's perspective for their systems. The decoders will work with any of the main systems. Most of all, make sure you have fun. Best, mike
Mike- Thanks for your input. I had one retailer recommend the Digitrax Zepher so I looked at it. My major issue was my railroad is a walk around switching trackplan, so the built in throttle would not be practical. It was unclear to me even after looking at their website if you could hook in wireless or expand to handle three locomotives. An email to Digitrax came back indicating not recommended for my planned railroad. Thanks again for giving me a hand. John
Terry, the here is how I understand to get you up and running for your situation. I have no experience using NCE wireless system (my layout is too small and it's too expensive). I do know you can by throttles with radio already installed, and they also make a kit to convert them to radio. First of all get as big of booster as you need. I think you could probably have your layout set up to run radio and standard plug in. And on the one supplying power, you should only have one cab hooked up with the flat 6 wire cable, all other cabs should be the coiled 4 wire cable. It sounds to me like you have one system hooked up to the layout, and a separate system on a programing track. You could probably keep the one at the programing track as is. As far as expanding for your layout like I said get all the booster power you need, then I think you could have the wireless going for walking around, and then have the plug ins along the layout where you could have throttle's that stay there if that's what your wanting to do. And you are aware that NCE makes 4 different throttles you can buy.
John, Since you are here in Kansas City, I recommend you not buy a control system yet. Instead get out and operate locally. Try out the command control systems in use locally, mainly Digitrax and CVP Products. Talk with the local owner / operators and get their opinions. I would avoid almost all shop owners as most are not regular operators. They may "run trains" but are not operators. Test drive the systems by using them on operating layouts. Kick the tires, look them over out of the box and installed in the field. See and use the system features. Have the owners show you what is needed to install, program, turn on, use and maintain the system. Ask about any system issues they have encountered, what was done to overcome an issue, how the manufacturer tech support and warranty worked. Which throttle feels best to you? I think CVP Products has the advantage here. Which has the features you like / need or dislike / will not use? Digitrax might have a cost advantage. However, bottom line cost should be secondary to features you like and support (again locally) that are available. How does the system perform during the acid test of multiple operators, operating multiple trains at the same time? Remember, an operating railroad is a different animal, and a whole lot more fun and interesting, that just simply "running trains". Do not try to reinvent the wheel or go it alone. Ask for help. Get hands on experience and opinions first. Every owner locally I know on the 20+ operating layouts in town is willing to help you. We also have our local experts, including Keith Robinson, just in case you need a techie type. In traveling around the country to operate, the systems used locally also seem to be the same systems most regular operating layouts use. I know very few operators who are really computer nerds, so the systems are designed with the novice in mind. And they continue to get better, less complicated and less expensive. The one universal key is proper installation infrastructure. The bus should be soldered to each and every piece of rail. Continuity of signal is the critical element. Bottom line, get involved with local operators. I strongly feel you should stay with a system that is in use locally. Your local friends are the ones who can provide the installation, start up, trouble shoot, tech and moral support you need. They are also the same ones you will will want to share the joy of operation with on your layout! Don't forget, they reciprocate too! Hope this helps. Thanks! Mark
John: Think ahead, will you be wanting to expand the layout at a later date? Whichever brand you buy do not start out with a "basic" system. For instance a Digitrax Zephyr. You will not be satisfied with it over the long run. I recommend that you go with a system that is used locally so that you will have help readily available in your area. I know that you operate at Rick's. So I am just going to come out a say this. Go with a Digitrax Super Chief to get started. Programming a locomotive with a DT 400 is not that complicated. I can remember a couple of phone calls between Rick and myself when he first got started. He was able to program loco's in a very short order. As with anything there will be a slight learning curve and in my opinion the learning can be fun. I will help you as much as I can and I know there are others their locally who would be glad to help. Good luck and I hope to hear of your decision in the near future. Here is a very good source to buy your first system. www.litchfieldstation.com Bob Wintle
John, I can't speak for the other systems since I don't own them but I can tell you that we can program any locomotive decoder in less than 5 mins with Digitrax and without Decoder Pro. All we need is the decoder manual and your programming selections. Bring you locomotives over. I will guide you as you do the actual programming. You will be amazed. I will add that most systems' programming is probably similar to Digitrax but you have to read the manual (most are not as good as they could be), you have to make some mistakes & learn, ask a question or two and then establish your programming routine. Actually I can program an engine faster than 5 mins. I was disappointed to hear that a hobby store owner would say that you had to be a programmer to use Digitrax. That is an uninformed, exaggerated and emotional statement. I have done real (computer) programming and I have set up a Digitrax system (it took Karl Schoettlin and I about 90 mins to set up a block and have an engine running on it). There is no comparison. I will add customer service to the mix too. Since I am not able to repair this equipment myself, I am at the mercy of manufacturer. Maybe you are at the mercy of the manufacturer too. This is where a real difference in manufacturers exist. I will not go into great detail here but will be happy to do so off line. I will tell you that my experience with Digitrax has been 100% satisfaction. I have only had one bad throttle which was replaced with a new unit in less than five business days. I will also add that TCS decoders (non-sound) also has excellent customer service (I cannot say this for other decoder mfrs). It was stated earlier that Digitrax has a cost advantage and that is true from everything I have seen over the years. When I see cost advantage + great customer service + a system that works well, I see the system for me. I have a lot of friends who have opted for the full price + bad customer service mfrs. They really look frustrated to me. The way I see it, you can deal with the mfrs or you can run your railroad. All I do is operate my railroad all the time.
Mark makes some great points about test driving systems and buying whatever system seems to be the one preferred locally. You will have questions and its always good to have someone who can teach you prompts and keystrokes necessary to make things work. Don't rely on the local hobby shop owners opinions as they are sometimes biased to a certain brand they push. I live in Wichita and this town has a lot of NCE users as that is what the local dealer has pushed for years. Mark mentioned CVP (which is actually EasyDCC) www.cvpusa.com and they are kind of funky in the fact that with only one exception, they only sell direct. They also have a somewhat unique Command Station that actually has two throttles built into it. When comparing it to Digitrax price wise only it stacks up fairly close, but the location of the throttles do limit their usefulness on most railroads. It is the system that I own, but it may or may not be the best for you. Mark also touched on the fact that their hand held throttles are good. If CVP would or could manufacturer throttles that would interface with other systems, I wager to bet that there would be a BIG market for them. The reason is simple, they are larger and more user friendly to hold. One more thing that you might want to consider that hasn't been mentioned and I encourage the Digitrax and NCE guys to chime in here is that I believe until just recently (with the introduction of the new duplex system, one has wire a control buss which they call LocoNet, which is different than the power buss Mark refers to, and plug in their throttle to acquire locomotives with Digitrax). With CVP and NCE a power buss isn't necessary and if one is going totally wireless they don't need one. __________________ Bob Hoover FriscoFriend
With Simplex Radio on does need to plug their throttle in to aquire a locomotive. That can be done at the command station and should only need to be done once during a session. A loconet is not needed. Most Digitrax users do add one for convienience. Loconet is one of the best features that Digitrax offers and would infact save a lot of wiring for a person who wanted to use power turnouts. It is really a subject that shouldn't be discussed here as it is just too in depth for this topic. Bob Wintle
Just for reference sake, with my system I use the wireless T9000E throttle that has a 15 address memory stored in it and all I have to after powering up my system is hit a couple of keystrokes and then dial the locomotive or consist that I desire without having to plug it into anything. If I am operating from the Command Station, I have to assign a locomotive or consist to the throttle that I want to use every time I power the system up. The only downside to this in my opinion is the price of the throttle which is $219. I also control all of my turnouts from either the Command Station or the handheld throttle by using CVP's AD4 Accesory Decoders. The only thing that they are plugged into is the track buss. They do require one to use keystrokes and can get pricey when figuring them plus the cost of a Tortorise for each switch machine. They do allow me the capability of devising routes in the form of macros that will throw multiple turnouts at a time. No one has mentioned this yet, but you may also consider joining the Yahoo Group or Groups dedicated to the brands that you are considering. Beware in advance that sometimes they can get quite techy but they do offer great advice with issues. I hope this helps.
John, as you have probably surmised by now, there are proponents of each of the three major DCC system providers, and they all can give you their reasons why you should buy what they have. The most important thing is that you operate (more than once) on any system you are considering buying and also ask the owners about programming decoders. Each system has its pros and cons, but make the purchase based on plenty of information and experience. I know of several owners whose experiences would direct them away from the systems they purchased initially. Programming ease is a factor but you spend less time programming than operating. Bottom line, DCC is not as tough as some make it sound, regardless of system and there are plenty of us that are more than ready to help anyone else get a start. I volunteered to be the support guy for the electronics forum because I am willing to help. Anyone wanting more technically oriented comparisons can send me a PM.
Just for the heck of it--What would it cost to "get into DCC" with a nice "starter" system and say two engines operating on a bedroom size layout? Ball park figure. Thanks, Tom
The ballpark figure is somewhere around $200. For that you can get you either an NCE PowerCab or a Digitrax Zephyr and a couple of decoders. Responding to the rest of this thread... Digitrax,Lenz, and NCE are the big 3 players in the DCC market... which is more popular depends on the circles you run in. I would count CVP in there as a 4th as well, but only in certain regions (the closer you are to DFW, the more CVP is the dominant player). I've always been partial to Lenz equipment myself. I prefer the LH90 knob throttles to just about anything else on the market for running trains. Paul
$200? That's just one of the reasons I'm not interested in DCC, I have upwards of a HUNDRED engines! I think I'll pass... Tom
I went out to litchfield station real quick and did a price check. To get started with the NCE power cab, plus 2 TCS T1 decoders is $185.94 (less than the MSRP of the power cab!) And the Digitrax Zephyr plus 2 TCS T1 decoders is $192.67 (less than MSRP of the Zephyr) So there isn't much price difference between the Power cab, and Zephyr with 2 decoders. Both would be less than $200. I know it sounds like a lot, but when I got my power cab it was so much fun that I'm never going back to standard DC. As others have said before in this topic, it's really who you ask which system you get recommended to you. If you went with NCE, me and others on the forum would be able to help. I'm sure there's people with NCE in the KC area. If you went with digitrax, I know a lot of people use that in the KC area also. So basically what this boils down too is choose the system that fits you best.
Thanks to everyone for their input. Several of you have mentioned getting a starter set and then not being able to expand as my railroad grows. There is no expansion, this is it for me. A swithcing railroad running three locomotives. One of our Frisco members has mentioned to me not to go with Digitrax middle set, the Empire Builder. The reason being you can't read the input in the decoder. In fact Litchfield Station's website has a big notice about this and has stopped stocking the Empire Builder. I don't plan to install any decoders, so how important is this. All my locomitives are DCC ready and sound equiped. So if the Zepher is too small, and the Empire Builder has limitations I'm out to the top of the line Super Chief. This seems like overkill for what I'm doing, where I see a lot of operating sessions with one locomotive, i.e. me. So let's go back to the Zepher. One throttle will be running a yard engine, so the built in controls in Zepher could work here. It has a rating of 2.5 Amp (I think) so it might handle three locomotives. Can you run additional walkaround throttles to the Zepher? It is confusing to me, but seems better than wiring all those toggle switches in DC. Not really an option. Also, looking forward to the Frisco Group in KC and meeting some of you. John |-|
John: Yes you can add more throttles. It will take a UP 5 panel or a UR panel for Radio. No problem. If this is all your layout is going to be then a Zephyr will do fine for you. If you get to where you need more power you can always add another booster. I would be glad to discuss this with you privately. Bob Wintle
John, as Bob correctly indicates the Zephyr would be a good starting point for you and your layout. If you want to add a wireless throttle or two, your next step would be to add the UR91 Wireless Receiver, PS14 Power Supply, and the UT4R throttles. The UR91 Receiver has the jack that is used for the UT4R wireless throttles to acquire control of the decoder that is dialed in on its address knobs.
Thanks for all the posts. I went with Digitrax Zepher with UR91 radio and utility throttles. One end of the layout is a small yard off stage yard to block trains for the layout. The Zepher will work quite well here. Two UT-4R throttles will handle all the switching along the line. I mentioned earlier my aversion to all things technical. Because of a one page "quick start" guide I had it up and running in about five minutes. I hooked two wires up to the track (my wiring was in), plugged in the transformer and heard my 0-6-0 come to life. Now that I have trains moving I may get motivated to move a little faster. John |-|
