E8A - When Were Two Locomotives Verses One Locomotive Used On Passenger Trains - Inquiry

Discussion in 'E8A' started by friscomike, Jan 19, 2010.

  1. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Howdy,

    What was the determining factor for deciding how many locomotives to use on a passenger train?

    Was it number of cars, grades on route or some other factor?

    I' have seen photographs of passenger trains with one A unit and some with two.

    Best,

    Mike
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2024
  2. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    This is at least partly due to horsepower per ton rules for the subdivision the train ran on. The implication is that longer trains need more locomotives.

    I know during heavy traffic periods like Christmas for example, two E-units on trains like the Kansas City-Florida Special were spliced by one of the steam generator equipped GP7 or steam line equipped F7Bs.

    I have never seen photographs of a train with an FP7A between two E-units or one with 3 E-units.

    Paul
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  3. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    I do not know the train tonnage math, but on the Frisco, eight cars was about the limit for a single E-unit.

    I have only seen it on the Will Rogers. The Frisco E-units were not ever coupled elephant style, always back to back and never three in a lash up. As Paul says there were freight B-units sandwiched between E-units sometimes.

    I saw the northbound Kansas City-Florida Special No 106 arriving at Springfield with a three-unit E8A-F7B-E8A diesel lash up and twenty-two cars in December 1961. Eleven express reefers of Christmas Mail were on the head end.

    I have seen photographs of Frisco E units leading a FP7A or a F7B as the second unit. I have seen a photo of a train with two FP-7As back to back. Also seen a photograph of a lash up with: FP7A-F7B and a steam generator car. The last two mentioned were probably troop or other special trains.

    In employee timetables there were charts of what diesel combinations were permitted for both freight and passenger trains.

    Also I have seen a three unit consist of E8A-GP7-E8A.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  4. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    It had to do with the tonnage rating of the particular type of locomotive on the specific subdivision over which it was operating.

    Trains Nos 709-710 on the Central Division between Fort Smith and Monett regularly ran with six heavyweights and a single E-unit, either an E7A (EA7) or E8A, it did not matter. Later they ran regularly with five heavyweights and a single FP7A or GP7.

    Anything much over six cars, as frequently occurred with extra Pullmans for troop movements to and from Fort Chaffee necessitated a second unit, usually one of the steam generator-equipped GP7s. The E-units could not operate as three together or as a middle unit as they had no nose multiple unit (MU) connections.

    One of the nicest combinations I saw in Fort Smith was an FP7A-F9B-FP7A set one night when there was a particular group of extra cars for troops.

    I know that the streamlined Meteor in the days before the E8As arrived operated Tulsa-Oklahoma City with one unit and eight cars. It must have operated Monett-Tulsa with ten or eleven cars.

    There were two units between St. Louis and Monett, but one then split off and operated Monett-Paris, and there were only four total cars. Later two units operated through between St. Louis and Lawton.

    This is all pretty flat country, so it is possible but I will bet it was something of a struggle between Monett and Tulsa.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  5. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    In Joe Collias' Frisco Power there is the great Preston George photograph of the Meteor at Poole, OK with E8A SLSF 2017 and eight cars, including two heavyweights.

    The single unit on the Oklahoma section is de-mystified by Gordon's post indicating the train was split at Monett, MO.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  6. w3hodoug (Doug Hughes RIP 03/24/2021)

    w3hodoug (Doug Hughes RIP 03/24/2021) 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    A retired passenger engineer between St. Louis-Springfield once told me they preferred the steam line equipped Also FB-1s to the EMD F units due to the ability of the GE traction motors to run at high speed without burning them out.

    This was Harry "Polecat" Hefflin, a contemporary of Don Wirth's father.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  7. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Doug,

    Do you have further details as to which FB-1s received the through steam lines?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  8. w3hodoug (Doug Hughes RIP 03/24/2021)

    w3hodoug (Doug Hughes RIP 03/24/2021) 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    I think you'd find it in either the X2200S roster as a footnote or in Frisco Diesel Power.

    I have access to neither at the moment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  9. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    I probably would not be considered the final authority on such matters, but I have seen a lot of Frisco trains in person and in photographs/

    I never heard of, saw or have seen a photograph of a FB-1 lashed up with an E-unit. That would have been such an oddity and surely would have been photographed somewhere.

    There is no mention of such in Marre's Frisco Diesel Power or in Frisco Employee Time Tables or diesel diagrams.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  10. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Frisco Diesel Power, pages 92 to 96, makes no mention of steam generator equipment or pass through steam lines on Alco FA-1 or FB-1 diesel road freight locomotives.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Harry's story has me scratching my head. To no avail, I have looked through my diagrams and ETT's for some dual-service FB-1's.

    The November 1984 Passenger Train Journal, has an Art Riordan photograph of FA-1 SLSF 5205 with a passenger train in tow on the KCT as it passes over Southwest boulevard in Kansas City. The caption states that it is 1963 with train No 107.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  12. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Karl,

    I think that same article also had a passenger train being pulled by a BLW switcher.

    I guess if it was warmer weather, it would be OK in an emergency?

    I can just imagine if such a thing had ever happened, Louis Marre would have a photograph of it, probably snapped himself.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  13. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    I find no reference to steam pipe equipped FB-1s in any of the diagrams or in the X2200S roster.

    If they existed, I would think they would have been so noted on the diagrams as the steam line equipped F9Bs were.

    I will bet it could have happened, though, but not in winter months. During warmer months, I could see the possibility of a FB-1 stuck in between two Racehorse E units. What little steam demand the train had at that time of year could be supplied by the trailing unit.

    With a heavy train, the Alco, if the 244 was running OK, would certainly be a help to the E units on Valley Park Hill, Iron Hill, Rolla Hill, Dixon Hill, etc.

    Ken
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  14. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    The oft-seen photograph in Fort Smith, AR of VO-1000 SLSF 213 with a few empty gondolas followed by four passenger cars was taken by either Louis or me .

    As usual we were both there and no telling which of us was taking slides and which black and white negatives that day. We photographed the daily ritual of taking No 709s train out to the wye at the Whirlpool plant to be turned in order to be lined up for the evening's No 710.

    Do not believe that turning the cars at the wye constituted a passenger train move, it was after all just a switching move. I somehow think we actually rode the move that day, but that was close to fifty years ago and the brain cells, oh well. I am not sure what the gondolas were all about, just some industry work to do along the way.

    Regarding FA-1/FB-1s in passenger service, I will add my name to the list of people who never witnessed this although I saw a lot of other unusual combinations. That is not to say, however, that it did not happen.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  15. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Indeed - five exhausts working hard, one of them with the unique Alco sound! Would have been fun to hear.

    Ken
     
  16. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Gordon,

    Here's the url to Mike's web site.

    http://condrenrails.com/Frisco Catalog/BLW-switchers.htm

    The image of 222 with four passenger cars is the one that was used in the Passenger Train Journal article.

    As you describe it is a switching move on its way to be turned.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  17. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Aha! Not the photo that I thought was being referred to, and certainly taken by Mike.

    It is the same switching move to turn the cars though, and looks more convincing on account of its lack of freight cars this day.

    I am trying to attach the photograph I was thinking about.

    Shows the risk of responding when you are travelling and don't have access to your materials.

    SLSF 213 FSM 8-61.jpg

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  18. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Gordon,

    In the days when they split the Meteor engines at Monett on trains No 9 and No 709, the first going to Oklahoma and the latter going to Ft. Smith, AR, Paris, TX, at least one engine had to be turned and the sleeper and possibly coach also switched out of the main train.

    Do you know how all that was done?

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024
  19. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Re: When were two locomotives used vs one on passenger trains

    Tom

    The Fort Smith sleeper was always positioned next ahead of the diner/lounge/observation and would have been a simple set-over to the rear of No 709s consist by the Monett switch engine.

    From the headend of No 9, both the trailing unit and the lead baggage car were set out. I assume that the locomotive was turned on the turntable, but I never observed it to be able to verify that.

    Neither the coach nor the snack-coach off No 710 went through, so they had already been turned somehow to be ready to go south on No 709. Actually I do not know for certain that they both turned. I know the snack car did, but I suspect that the coach continued on No 310 north to Wichita since I seem to recall that there were usually two coaches that alternated through to Fort Smith.

    At least in later years the RPO baggage off No 710 went through as far as Springfield, but do not know whether this was happening during the fairly brief period when the Meteor's locomotive consist was being split.

    Sure wish I could go back in time and just stand there in Monett from about 11: pm until 3 am and watch the Texas Special in both directions, the Meteor in both directions, the Will Rogers southbound. and the Fort Smith-Paris and Joplin-Wichita trains all pass through, originate or terminate.

    Oh well.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2024

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