Re: West Bottoms RR Map?? Dale has done a great job with these overlays. For anyone with real operational experience I have a question. You will notice there are switches pointing north and south, yet there does not appear to be any run around tracks. So how would the Frisco run jobs into the west bottoms? Would an locomotive go all the way from 19th street yard with cars blocked ahead and behind, switch,then drag the whole thing back to 19th street. Or as one person has suggested to me, a job would run in with all north pointing switches and another with south pointing switches. I would assume during the transition period these jobs powered by Baldwin VO's. Confirmation? I am trying to break my proposed layout into "jobs" so as to keep a couple of operators busy. Thus my question. Thanks in advance. John
Re: West Bottoms RR Map?? A very astute question, John, and one I look forward to (hopefully) seeing someone answer! In the absence of that, I'd guess that your hypothesis seems plausible enough. It sounds like you are approaching the layout design from the standpoint of keeping operations foremost, and following the prototype plan. IMO, that makes for a lot of longer-term layout satisfaction. Best Regards,
Re: West Bottoms RR Map?? Dale, the map overlays you have provided are beyond-helpful! I cannot thank you enough. Mark, your map links are superb for helping me put everything into contemporary context. I wish I'd made the West Bottoms tour back in the spring! Now my question, vis-a-vis my own layout's West Bottoms vignette. As Abernathy Furniture is not on the maps as a Frisco industry, I'm assuming it was handled by a foreign road. Can anyone verify this and, if so, which road? Since I've not begun to lay track yet, I am contemplating tweaking my West Bottoms area to be more Frisco-specific. At the very least, I can mock up a photo-backdrop or modeled flat of the North/East sides of Abernathy Furniture! Best Regards,
Re: West Bottoms RR Map?? Chris, you can go into Microsoft Virtual Earth "Birdseye View" and rotate looking to the east. Abernathy Furniture starts at the corner of 9th and Wyoming going to the east along 9th street. I can't tell from what direction it was switched, but it appears the nearest tracks are former MOPAC. John
Re: West Bottoms RR Map?? Great thread. Boomer John, Mark and klrwizkid were over last night and the photos with the overlays were excellent resource material. Dale, thanks for putting this together for us. John's new layout looks like it is going to a lot of fun and include a lot of character like the curved Rudy Patrick Seed Co buildings, the Armour packing plant and street running. Good stuff. Ship IT on the Frisco! Rick
Re: West Bottoms RR Map?? Indeed, a good thread. Glad I thought of it! In addition to my long time fascination with the area, as I said below, in the back of my mind I had the idea of creating the West Bottoms in V scale (computer train sim). Unfortunately, the more I am learning/seeing in regards to what was actually there, the more I realize how vast the rail network was in addition to the supporting cast needed (structures/details/etc). The more complexity, the less likely it can be a candidate for reproduction in V scale. (There are practical limitations in the virtual world of model railroading.) Perhaps I could freelance a V scale "route" BASED on the West Bottoms, but with significant reduction of railroad infrastructure? Hmmmm. Whatever happens, it's all fun and this IS an interesting thread! Andre Ming
West Bottoms Revisted Hi All: Attached you'll find a topo map of the West Bottoms. I have labeled some things that I'm hoping "those that know" can help me with. Bear in mind I'm looking at mid-sixties era... so if you can answer accordingly, that will be additionally helpful. (i.e. BNSF/etc didn't exist!) First, the alphabet soup: Railyard A: Who wuz dat? B: Is this a Frisco industry switching region? C: Likewise, was this a Frisco industry switching region? D: Of course, this is the Frisco's 19th St. Yard area... but was there an ajoining yard hosting another RR? If so, where and what railroad? Color coded lines: IF you know, what lines used the color highlighted rails? Purple = ? Pink = ? Orange = ? Like I said... that was a fascinating area. It is very interesting to learn more about it and "place" the elements. Andre Ming
Re: West Bottoms Revisted A: Chicago Great Western Yard later Chicago Northwestern. B: Frisco territory is slightly to the north and east of your letter B. North-south down the middle of Santa Fe St. East-west in the alley between 8th & 9th street west of Santa Fe St. East-west behind the structures on north side of 8th street. Diagonally NE parallel to the line you marked in orange as far east as the triangular freeway interchange at the end of your orange line. Reference the West Bottoms maps I have previously posted. Helmers was in the middle of the triangular interchange with the freeway ramps at the edge of the building. C: This was the KC Stockyards location and was switched by a small terminal company. Something like the Kansas City Connecting Railroad? Rock Island had a bridge over the Kansas River at this location that is still there and dead ends on the west side of Kemper Arena. Think this was used to access the Rock Island freight house along Hickory or Liberty St. D. There was a yard running parallel, north and slightly west of the Frisco 19th St. Yard. This was the ICG yard. Formerly GM&O and before that Alton. Orange lines are former Mopac lines that are still heavily used by the Union Pacific. Purple lines I don't know, maybe the KC Connecting Ry. lines? Pink lines I don't know see comments about purple lines
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Thank you very much for your informative reply! The "Kansas City Connecting??" road sounds interesting. Wonder what they used for power? Andre Ming
Re: West Bottoms Revisted The Kansas City Terminal (KCT) Railway was jointly owned by all the KC railroads. I bet this is what you are referring to. It is still in service today. Steam switching power was USRA 0-8-0 (Proto 2000). Diesels included NW2s, S-2s and SW12s. Will have to double check on that. Today they use GP somethings in bright yellow. Bring your sunglasses. Check out the photos at http://gelwood.railfan.net/kct/kct.html Ship IT on the Frisco ! Rick
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Andre, "A" marks the Ohio Street Yard of the Chicago Great Western (CGW) / Chicago North Western (CNW) (after 1968). Parallel on the south side of this yard is the Kansas City Southern (KCS) line to the Kansas River and Frisco's line to the Armour Meat Packing Plant. The CGW and KCS/Milw freight houses were also near the east end of this area. "B" marks the Missouri Pacific (MoP) line to Kansas and the connection with the Union Pacific (UP) Armourdale Yard and the Chicago Rock Island and Pacific (CRIP) / St. Louis Southwestern (SSW or Cotton Belt) (after 10/1980) Armstrong Yard. "C" marks an industrial area and a portion of the Kansas City Electric Railway right of way. At the intersection of S. James Street and E. Central Street there is a street railway electric substation building. "D" marks the 12th Street Yard of the Chicago & Alton (C&A) / Gulf Mobile and Ohio (GM&O) (after 1947) / Illinois Central Gulf (ICG) (after 1972) and parallel 19th Street Yard of the Frisco. Just to the east of the Frisco's yard, built into the hillside, is the Kansas City Terminal Railway's "Bluff Line". The D is located very near the sites of the C&A/GM&O/ICG and Frisco Freight Houses (just south of 12th Street). Just to the north of 12th Street was a former Chicago, Burlington and Quincy (CB&Q) engine facility and yard. Pink highlighted area is the Kansas City Southern (KCS) Railway. They had a bridge across the Kansas River just to the southwest of the CGW's Ohio Street yard. Yellow / Orange highlighted area is the Missouri Pacific. Purple highlighted line is the Kansas City Terminal Railway. South of the Missouri Pacific (MoP) the line is referred to as the 11th Street or Old Union Depot connection. The east end of this line is close to the old Kansas City Union Depot. The Purple "?" is very near the site of the Armour Meat Packing Plant. This facility was served by the Frisco. The Kansas City Stockyards were south of 12th Street and I-670 (the Red horizontal line in the map above) and straddled the Kansas / Missouri state lines. The 55 acre complex ran generally north / south and was mostly to the west of Genessee Street. The Kansas City Stockyard Company owned and operated the Kansas City Connecting Railroad (KCCRR). he KCCRR was an in-plant only switching line that serviced the stockyards. Their line ran along the east side of the Kansas River between the levee and the stockyard, with a few spurs into portions of the stockyard. Switching operations included spotting stock cars, animal feed, hay, and coal hoppers for the stockyard power and steam plant. In the steam era they operated a couple of 0-6-0 switchers. In the diesel era their power was a GE 70-ton locomotive, number 13. Hope this helps. Thanks! Mark
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Once again, thanks for sharing more information! Rick: Yup, I found that dandy of a site some time ago, and most applicable jpegs are stored in the "KCLines" folder that resides on my hard drive. Mark: Thanks for the additional input on my highlighted/annotated map. Alas, your answers raise a couple of questions: 1. Did the KCT by any chance have a small service facility in the right most extreme of the "purple" highlighted line area? (Did they have a switcher stationed there, or did the job operate out of their main facilities further to the south near Southwest Boulevard?) 2. Where would the CB&Q terminal be? In what proximity to the pink "B" would it have been? Was it a modest facilty? Like I said... this area is really fascinating. What a subject for modeling.(Especially benchwork modeling.) Andre
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Andre, The KCT's engine facilities were in the 2650 block of Southwest Boulevard. The roundhouse still stands, converted to an office building, and in the former engine service and coach yard area has a new large warehouse building added. This area is just southwest of Kansas City Union Station, near KCT's Tower 4, and between Frisco's Rosedale and 19th Street Yards. The KCT's industry and yard jobs operated out of their facility on Southwest Boulevard. For example, the engines for the KCT's main freight classification operation at Mill Street Yard would start at the engine facility, run over the Kansas River, do their work and tie up back at the engine house. The extreme right Purple highlighted area east of Santa Fe Street and south of Union Avenue was the location of the former Kansas City Union Depot. KCT's Tower 2, also known as (aka) Old Union Depot Interlocking, controlled much of this area. This was a busy place with extensive transfer and through train movements. Today, the KCT maintains maintenance of way supplies here. However, there were no KCT engine facilities in this area. The CBQ engine house sat just north of the 12th Street bridge almost exactly where the large black square is located, just northeast of the letter "D" on your map. The CBQ facility was on the north side of the 12th Street bridge and the Frisco's freight house was on the south side. This was a moderate size facility per the 1925 Sanborn map with a roundhouse with 18 stalls. The West Bottoms also had most of the freight houses for the railroads that served Kansas City. Most railroads also served industries in the bottoms that were close to their lines. Variety of railroads, equipment, facilities, street and alley running, cool buildings, interesting track work are are all attractive modeling features. By the way, another name for the West Bottoms was the "Central Industrial District". After the 1951 flood, the area began to decline in importance as businesses moved away to higher, less flood prone areas. I will again extend an invitation to anyone interested in the area my offer for a guided tour. The Alley and the Hill are also interesting industrial switching areas in close proximity to the bottoms. The more we all share, the more we all learn from each other. Hope this helps. Thanks! Mark
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Yet again, thank you much for your help. I am going to copy/paste the info to text so I can use it for reference in the future. MEMORY LAPSE: As a youngster in the late 50's and early/mid 60's... I "think" I recall my dad going to buy building supplies down in the West Bottoms over by the Frisco's 19th St. Yard. I recall it was "Southerland's Lumber Company". Recall watching Frisco VO's switching the yard and trundling by with cuts. However, when I visit the area "now"... I can find absolutely nothing that resembles my memories. Can anyone confirm or dispell this memory? WAS there a Southerland's Lumber Company in the West Bottoms? Ya' know... the mind is a terrible thing to loose. Andre Ming
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Andre, Sutherland Lumber Company had a facility in the West Bottoms near the south end of the Frisco's 19th Street Yard. The facility shows clearly on Sanborn maps of the area. Sutherlands was a good customer not only in Kansas City but also at their other locations in Frisco territory. Sutherland Lumber Company is a family owned company based in Kansas City for over 90 years. The company started in 1917 and they currently operate independent lumber yards and home improvement centers in 13 states. The company history is interesting and is summarized in the following link: http://sutherlands.com/history.php By coincidence our neighbors across the street worked before retirement as accountants for the company and still handle some of the family's personal finances. Hope this helps! Thanks! Mark
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Mark to the rescue... AGAIN!! Thank GOD I'm not losing it entirely just yet! Guess my "Sutherland" memories are correct. When dad would make a trip to Sutherland's, I would always head over alongside the tracks. Of course, I knew better than to venture into the yard proper... but plenty of action could be seen just standing beside the mains. One distinct memory I have regarding a Sutherland's visit was my first sighting of bright orange and white diesels over in the engine service area. Of course, couldn't get up close (as they were a good ways over there)... but boy... did they ever "glow"! Could have been some of the first O&W U25's or GP35's, for I THINK I recall low hoods. Have no way of knowing for sure what I saw now.
Re: West Bottoms Revisted Andre, Sutherlands location in the West Bottoms was at the southeast corner of Wyoming and 19th Street. I just checked the Sanborn map to find the address, 1911 Wyoming / 1501-1515 West 19th Street. The lumber yard and buildings would have been due west of the Yard and KCT tracks, on the same east / west axis as the old shop complex boiler house or the modern diesel shop. Today the location would be in the parking lot of the Kemper Arena, just northeast of the American Royal complex. When Kemper Arena was constructed during 1973 - 1974, Wyoming Street was rerouted to the east in the area and the Sutherlands location you remember would have been demolished. A modern satellite view of the area is http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=39.090992,-94.600997&spn=0.004622,0.01236&t=h&z=17 Hope this helps. Thanks! Mark
Re: West Bottoms RR Map?? Since I hadn't seen it mentioned before, has anybody checked out some of the old aerial photos at this website? I believe that this one of the West Bottoms is from 1969.
Add more West Bottoms stuff in the pages of the attachment here: Frisco Joint Trackage Rights / Interchange - Kansas City
