Tulsa - Oklahoma City Track Profile

Discussion in 'Southwestern Div Track Charts/Industry Schematics' started by r c h, Jun 29, 2014.

  1. r c h

    r c h Ft Worth - Tulsa Engineer

    I have a copy of the Tulsa to Oklahoma City track profile dated September 22, 1978. This was one of several sets printed up and stapled together at the Madill, OK yard office and kept with the timetables, track warrant books and other forms. I thought it was strange it would be there, since we wouldn't operate over this territory out of Madill.

    Unfortunately, MP 435 to 440 is missing from the set, which is otherwise complete. The photocopies aren't great to start with, but I have scanned what's there and compiled it into a PDF file.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2014
  2. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    I have cropped and uploaded the Track Profile on Ryan's original post.
  3. tmfrisco

    tmfrisco Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks, Ryan, for posting this track chart. It certainly brought back memories for me. It is a shame the five mile stretch was missing because that would have shown the junction of the Creek and Oklahoma subs at Sapulpa. It is interesting what can be found by rummaging around in the depots. I used to do that also, primarily in the Tulsa Union Depot and the Springfield passenger depot.

    Terry Jankowski

    ps: Thanks to Keith for his work to make the profile easily readable.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2014
  4. r c h

    r c h Ft Worth - Tulsa Engineer

    Thanks for taking care of business, Keith!
  5. r c h

    r c h Ft Worth - Tulsa Engineer

    I agree, Terry. If any segment of that run should be missing, I hate for it to be at Sapulpa. Fortunately, I have that section including Oma and Sapulpa on my BNSF Creek Subdivision track charts, but it doesn't include very much of the Sooner Subdivision (BNSF's name for this Tulsa to OKC territory - not sure what the Frisco name was).

    Even though we don't run on the former Frisco from Tower 60 to 8th Avenue Yard here in Fort Worth, I'd love to get some track profiles on that territory if any exist. I have a copy of the track schematics posted in this forum and they are an excellent source of information.
  6. tmfrisco

    tmfrisco Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Rich, you got me to wondering where I came up with Oklahoma Sub, and not trusting my memory, went to one of the timetables I salvaged in some of my rummaging, and I was correct in calling the Sapulpa to OKC sub the Oklahoma Sub.

    Terry Jankowski
  7. r c h

    r c h Ft Worth - Tulsa Engineer

    Cool, Oklahoma Sub. It has a nice ring to it.

    By the way, it's Ryan, but when I use my initials a lot of people see it as "rich". Just think how many Frisco models I could have if I was...

    I'll fix my signature
  8. tmfrisco

    tmfrisco Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Well, I'm batting .500. I had the Oklahoma Sub name correct:D, and blew your name:eek:. You don't need to do anything with your signature, it is just fine. By the way, a little off topic, but Oklahoma Sub info: the maximum passenger train speed was 70 mph in 1964, and I know the engineers would fudge on that if they were running behind. So much for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth of today's naysayers that passenger train speed cannot be run on this sub. Certainly work needs to be done on the road bed and signaled, but it would be possible to run trains at a decent passenger speed.

    One other thing I want to point out is that the Frisco moved the Oklahoma Sub east from Sapulpa to Cherokee Yard, and this was a constant irritant to the trainmen on the Creek Sub (which started at Sapulpa) for many years after I hired on. By the time I hired on in 1971,the engineers had settled with the Frisco on that mileage loss on the Cherokee Sub, but the trainmen had not. Consequently, there was an east end brakeman running out the miles on the Creek Sub year around, and a conductor doing the same for six months out of the year. I can't prove it, but I think that move on the part of the Frisco was at or near the time (mid to late twenties) when the division point was moved from Sapulpa to Cherokee Yard. The Frisco was going to buy additional land in Sapulpa to significantly enlarge the yard there, and as the word got out, some individuals in Sapulpa bought up the land first with the intention of making a killing on the resale of the property to the Frisco. One night the Frisco loaded up all the shop equipment onto flat cars, and moved the division point from Sapulpa to Tulsa. Until that time, the yard in Tulsa was more of a intermediate yard and not the division point yard it became. The old heads told me that from that point on there was bad blood between Sapulpa and the Frisco. They told me that if anyone wanted to sue the Frisco to file the lawsuit in Sapulpa as a more favorable ruling was possible there. I admit that this last statement was folk lore among the old heads, but it was told to me as the truth. If you will look at pictures and track charts of Sapulpa in the early twenties, you will see significantly more trackage than in the thirties when Cherokee yard and Tulsa Union Depot were handling the freight and passenger business.

    At some point, the track between Cherokee yard and Sapulpa was changed to the Creek Sub with the Oklahoma Sub beginning at Sapulpa. I couldn't find any of my later timetables to see when that might have happened. Maybe Jerome will know the answer to this.

    Terry Jankowski
    Joe Lovett likes this.
  9. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Oklahoma Sub

    I do not know how I missed this but the Oklahoma Sub (as Terry said) ran from Sapulpa to Oklahoma City. My understanding is that Sapulpa was the division point until it was moved to Tulsa, at which time the mileage between Sapulpa and Tulsa was taken away from the (Cherokee sub??) and given to the Creek sub. In return the Cherokee sub trainman were granted rights for one brakeman year around and one conductor 6 months a year, on the Oklahoma sub. Tulsa engineers had equal seniority on the Oklahoma sub with Oklahoma City engineers. I know of at least one Tulsa engineer who worked the Oklahoma sub. That being Sam Walls who worked the Tulsa side of the Oklahoma sub local. As Terry mentioned the Oklahoma Sub was ABS and posted 55 MPH for freights. I believe I posted before that many times I went from OKC to Sapulpa in less than 2 hours and 15 minutes. Back in the day, Passenger trains were allowed 70 MPH. Jerome-OKC
  10. paul slavens

    paul slavens Member

    I rode from Bristow to Depew today on the Oklahoma sub, its the Polar Express promotional train. Starting next spring regular passenger trains will run from Sapulpa to Midwest City.
  11. Michel Weston

    Michel Weston Member

    I just came across this after Googling my great grandfather Sam Walls and Oklahoma Engineer. Am curious if this is the same Sam Walls mentioned in this thread. He retired tho Snyder,OK and passed probably around 1985. Just curious. Thanks!


  12. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    The Sam Walls I worked with was from Snyder. If I remember correctly he indicated that he worked for the railroad at Snyder and them moved to Tulsa. He lived in West Tulsa when I knew him. He was a good engineer and a nice person to work with. He always had a smile on his face and a compliment for those he worked with.
  13. Michel Weston

    Michel Weston Member

    Wow. Thanks for your reply. I am in Wisconsin now, but will be visiting my dad in Guthrie this summer with my two boys. They LOVE trains as much as, if not more, than most kids. Any suggestions on where we might go in OK, especially to possibly see a line that their great great grandfather worked on?


Share This Page