Inter-Railroad Transfer Trains In Fort Worth - Non-Reciprocal Agreements

Discussion in 'Freight Operations' started by friscomike, Jul 25, 2015.

  1. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Howdy folks,

    Tonight I had a long session with a retired T&P man who worked Tower 55 in Fort Worth.

    By the way, every railroad that ran through Fort Worth passed through Tower 55. The Frisco Freight Depot and main office were just a few blocks away from the tower. During our discussions, I queried about transfer trains between railroads.

    The answer was simple, every one of the seven railroads in Fort Worth made transfer runs to other railroad yards and always returned light. So it was possible that a Frisco transfer from the 8th Street Yard to Lancaster Yard on the T&P would run with is cut of cars, no cabooses were used in transfers on any FTW railroad, and return light with no cars.

    It could be followed immediately by another transfer from the T&P with a full load of cars back to the Frisco yard. I had wondered whether or not the railroads would run transfers full, both ways. Now I know the answer, NO.

    The discussions also talked about how the Frisco traveled through the matrix of rail to get to the 8th Street Yard. I'll discuss that when I get more information.

    Have fun,
    Mike Corley
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2023
  2. HWB

    HWB FRISCO.org Supporter

    Good to know but I don't think it works like these days
     
  3. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    I don't know FTW that well, but didn't they have to go south to Bird's then hang a right on the ATSF to get to the trackage to 8th Ave Yard.

    I had cousins living in FTW way back and stayed with them in about 1948 or so. One cousin lived on the 2900 block of 8th, just a bike ride to the yards and the other cousin lived at the end of Birds where the ATSF branched west.

    I remember seeing a 1500 come around the curve and head north at Birds. Also remember a morning ATSF passenger with a 4-8-2 that would rattle the windows coming off the branch.
     
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  4. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Howdy Don,

    From what I hear locally, that is correct.

    I checked the Sanborn maps, and I don't know any other way they could have gotten there.

    What was the 1500 doing, light, freight or passenger?

    Perhaps a section of the Texas Special?

    Best,
    Mike C
     
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  5. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Great stuff, Mike.

    Wonder why they operated this way - work rules?

    Until I should find any information to the contrary, I think I'll use similar rules for any transfer runs that I'm contemplating with our KC Lines. Thus far I think I can make room to interchange with the MKT, Wabash and AT&SF.

    I'll look forward to the further details when they arrive! I still kick myself for not talking to more of these ex-railroaders from Chaffee when I was younger and they were still around.

    Thanks very much for documenting and for sharing.

    Best Regards,
     
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  6. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    The 1500 was running light, probably down to Union Station.

    I used to sit out in the back yard at night and watch a Santa Fe 2-8-0 switching. I remember a wig wag signal at the grade crossing that fascinated me.

    When we were in FTW with the 1522, I ran her north right past my cousin's old house. Looked a lot different than it did in the early '50s.
     
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  7. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Very interesting and thanks for sharing your memories.

    They are packed full of information we don't have.

    Do you recall the approximate vicinity of the wig-wag crossing?

    Mike C
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2023
  8. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    The best I can remember after 60+ years was this.

    The area has changed as there really wasn't anything else around and it looks like the house that I THINK was my cousin's has been replaced by a new big house.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2023
  9. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Mike,

    "It could be followed immediately by another transfer from the T&P with a full load of cars back to the Frisco yard."

    In some terminals labor agreements prohibited returning with inbound cars. There were two types of basic agreements, reciprocal and non-reciprocal. Reciprocal agreements permitted transfer crews to take and return with cuts of transfer cars.

    Non-reciprocal agreements permitted transfer crews to take, but not return cuts of transfer cars. These agreements were a "job protection" ploy for union employees. Towns with non-reciprocal agreements were expensive transfer operations for railroads as a result.

    There were a few exception to this rule, but not many.

    Jerome
     
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  10. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks folks.

    Operations are very interesting.

    I wondered why such an inefficient practice prevailed, and now I understand, labor agreements.

    Mike C
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2023
  11. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks Don,

    I suspect we will represent the wigwag crossing signal on the Texas Western now that we know..

    Mike C
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2023
  12. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks for the insight, Jerome.

    Do you know, offhand, to which union(s) these agreements would have applied?

    I've thumbed through a Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers (BLE) agreement (Rev. 1-16-1950) and a Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen (BRT) agreement (Eff. 4-16-1939; new schedule eff. 12-27-1943).

    I can't find anything in those per the indices, and I don't have the patience at this hour to go through them from front to back.

    Best Regards,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2023

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