Train Orders Within CTC Territory - Block Signal Verses CTC Signal Control - (Was: Signals, etc.)

Not sure if this would be the correct thread for this inquiry; but under what circumstances in CTC territory would there be a need for train order signals at a depot?

Thanks, Tom

PS: You might like: http://www.railroadsignals.us/

 

Tom,

For example, during the late 40's, the Rolla and the Lebanon Subdivisions were a mix of CTC, OBS, and APBS.

It could be beneficial to issue train orders from a station that was inside CTC for execution in OBS or APBS territory.

Otherwise:

Form L or M orders which annulled parts of other orders or other orders in total.

Form O Siding to be used as main track

Form P Superseding an order or part of an order

Form S Temporarily taking a signal out of service

Form U Establishing Temporary Yard Limits

Form W To Avoid Stopping a Train to Register or For Clearance

Form X Speed Restrictions

Form Y & Z Track protection by Train Order

 

Here's Aurora, in this case, no problem, the train would stop for passengers and mail.

But if a dispatcher wanted to issue a complicated order where there was no agent, like Logan for instance, he would need the train to contact him over the phone, correct?

Tom

 

Right.

But if there is no agent on duty, the train order board would display a "no orders" indication unless the dispatcher instructed the last agent to leave the train order board in the "stop and pick up orders" position.

Paul

 

I guess I didn't make myself clear, at Logan, just a siding, there is no agent, depot or train order signal. And on Frisco passenger trains with E-units no radio.

How does a dispatcher communicate a complicated order in such a case?

Tom

 

In that case, there is no train order office, so no orders are delivered there.

If this is not CTC, any orders would have to be delivered prior to Logan.

If this is CTC the dispatcher would communicate only via signal indication.

Didn't the Frisco E-units eventually have radio installed at some point?

The "Train Radio on The Frisco" video sure makes it sound that way.

Paul

 

From photos, geeps, F's, FA's and switch engines all seem to have radios, but not the E-units for some reason?

Tom

 

Since the late 70's I've monitored railroad radio traffic on scanners.

Many times a dispatcher will ask trainmen to contact him by telephone, likely for complex orders or confidential information.

I'm curious as to how that was done in the period before radios?

What about after CTC was installed and many small stations closed say, in the 1946-1952 period?

Tom

 

The E's did not get radios; in the early days radios were not used for dispatching.

See Rule 1008 and Rule 1111.

Paul is correct, if the DS wish to transmit an order to a train, which was not near an open TO office, he would stop the train at the nearest A-Block. The crew would call the DS via phone, and the DS would transmit the appropriate order per rule 206(b).

 

Generally speaking, the necessity for train orders within CTC territory would be minimal.

Most orders would be speed restrictions, protection for MOW, etc. In my experience, if a train was running later than expected and was not near an open train order office, MOW would just have to wait. The other alternative would be to issue Track & Time.

If absolutely necessary, the method Karl explained would be used.

 

I was wondering what is the difference in block signals and train order signals?

 

The 1957 Book of Rules.

http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/rules-of-the-transportation-department.40/

 

Chris,

Dropping the orders was not an option. To say that there was hell to pay if you did is an understatement. At any kind of speed at all you made a fist and put your arm through the middle of the loop of string suspended in the train order delivery forks.

You used the crook of your arm at the elbow to catch the string and pull it off along with the orders which were tied securely to the string. Even halfway decent aim with this method meant no problems with fingers, arms or anything else.