Train Order 30, November 25, 1963

Discussion in 'Train Orders' started by klrwhizkid, Jun 16, 2020.

  1. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Attached is Train Order 30, November 25, 1963, honoring the fallen president, John F. Kennedy. This order was copied at Chaffee on the St Louis and Chaffee Subs of the River Division.

    Frisco Train Order #30 November 25, 1963.jpg
     
  2. Neat find Keith. Thanks for sharing that. My wife is a JFK memorabilia collector. I’ll show her this as well.
     
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  3. timothy_cannon

    timothy_cannon Member Frisco.org Supporter

    This is unique. Signed JAC (Jim Chronister) and his brother LLC (L.L. Chronister). L.L. was the man that had the replica depot in his backyard in Chaffee. LL and my grandfather nearly came to blows once at the Chaffee bowling alley, Lucky 13 lanes. They both used their personal bowling balls. One came up the ball return. and each said it was his. They both had the same brand ball and both had it marked with initials. Both were LLC! Grandpa, Louie Lee Cannon(LLC), finally realized his ball was heavier and this was not his. It just goes to show you that even if you have bigger balls you are not always right.
     
  4. timothy_cannon

    timothy_cannon Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Keith, If you don't mind I'm going to share this on one of the Chaffee history Facebook pages.
     
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  5. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Fine with me. The train order is currently in the possession of a gentleman named Dale Williams.
     
  6. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Very neat find, Keith. Thanks for sharing that.

    Tim: I’m laughing. That’s some story. Who’d a thunk?

    That’s the same alley where my Mom learned to bowl. I’m sorry I never got the chance to see it.

    Best Regards,
     
  7. Turky44

    Turky44 Member

    What does train order 30 fully say?
    I can read some of it
     
  8. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Here is what the train order says:

    Train Order No. 30 Nov. 25 1963

    To C.&E. All Trains

    At Chaffee Station

    At 11:00 am all trains pause for a 5 minute period of prayer for remembrance of our president John F Kennedy.
    JAC

    Made COM (complete)
    Time 1039a
    Dispatcher LLC
    Operator Williams.

    This was done out of respect for President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who was assassinated on November 22, 1963 in Dallas, TX.

    For those of us that like operations in timetable/train orders, it is a cool piece of history.
     
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  9. Jim James

    Jim James Staff Member Staff Member

    Wow, I was three months old. Very nice piece of history (the train order, not me).
    FYI. The opening sequence of Gilligan’s Island shows a flag at half mast while they’re leaving the harbor. It was because of the recent assassination.
     
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  10. gstout

    gstout Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I was sitting in a ninth grade biology class (which, by the way, was also the end of my medical training).

    GS
     
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  11. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Here is how the train order communication probably would have sounded as the order was dictated by Dispatcher L.L.Chronister to Operator Williams and read back over phone line (note numbers are stated and then spelled with the exception of train order form type [19, or 31]);

    Dispatcher: "Chaffee, copy one, nineteen, North and South." (19 was the type of train order form to use, and one was the number of copies).

    Operator: "Chaffee ready to copy.

    Dispatcher: "I have a train order number thirty, three naught, dated November twenty fifth, nineteen sixty three, to C and E, all trains, at Chaffee. Body, at eleven, o n e, o n e, a m, all trains pause for a five, f, i, v, e, minute period of prayer for remembrance of our president John F Kennedy. J A C". (JAC were the initials of the Superintendent).

    Operator: "Operator Chaffee has a train order number thirty, three naught, dated November twenty fifth, nineteen sixty three, to C and E all trains, at Chaffee. Body, at eleven, o n e, o n e, a m, all trains pause for a 5, f, i, v, e, minute period of prayer for remembrance of our president John F Kennedy. J A C" .

    Dispatcher: "Make that train order, number thirty complete at ten thirty nine a m. L L C."

    Operator: "Train order number thirty is complete at ten thirty nine am. Williams." (normally the operator would give his initials)

    That is the format that train order dictation from the dispatcher and read back by the operator would follow. The purpose of spelling or breaking numbers into segments and reading back orders was to ensure accuracy; peoples lives would depend on it. A completed train order would then have to be followed by a clearance; the train order provided no authority for train movement without an associated clearance. A Clearance Form was used for that.

    The Clearance Form dictation and read-back would go something like this:

    Operator: "Chaffee has a clearance dated November twenty fifth, nineteen sixty three, to C and E all trains. I have one order for your train, type a, number thirty."

    Dispatcher: "Chaffee, make that clearance okay at ten forty five a m. L L C."

    Operator: "Chaffee, okay at ten forty five a m. Williams".

    At this point the operator at Chaffee would attach copies of Clearance Form to copies of Train Order 30 to be passed to crews, or radioed to crews.
     
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  12. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Train Orders are fun...

    Just a couple of points...
    Given the context of of TO Number 30, please allow these points:
    1. The March 1, 1957 Transportation Depart Book of Rule no longer made a distinction between the 19 and 31 orders.
    2. Chaffee did not have a train order signal, but at stations that did, and which received this order, the first response from the operator would have been SD and then <Station Name> ready to copy
    3. If this order was transmitted to multiple stations at the same time, then after each operator read back the order to the Dspr, each would respond with <Station Name> Q, which confirmed the correctness of the read back. Once done the Dispr, would make the order complete.
    4. Train orders were not transmitted via radio at this time(Rule 1111). The unreliability of radio at that time was the principal reason that it wasn’t used to govern train movements. The 1974 collision at Mustang, OK was caused by a rule violation, but the use of radio may have contributed to the accident. The FRA’s report of the accident offered a mixed opinion with regard to the use of radio.

    "Although modern-day train length has out-dated whistle signals as a means of communication between the locomotive and the caboose, radio communication between the head-end and the rear-end of a train existed. However, there were no rules governing its use. The radio was used only at the discretion of individual crewmembers, which varied. The reasons for the promulgation of safeguards such as rules 14(n) and S-90 still exist when trains are scheduled to meet on single track lines. It seems that the radio could be used effectively to remind other crewmembers that a meet is contemplated; however, the specific methods and circumstances are not described in current rules and the ranges over which such communications can be reliably used have not been set forth.

    Similarly, radio contact between opposing trains could be another safeguard if the circumstances for its use were exactly set forth. The radio provided the first warning of the impending collision to the crew of train 3210 and the entire crew survived without serious injury. If radio contact had been successfully established earlier, the collision might have been averted even though train 3211 passed Mustang ahead of schedule. The radio contact was happenstance. It was not required by railroad management, but was made because of concern by the engineer of train 3210.

    The use of the radio in this instance may have saved lives when the collision was imminent, but it also contributed to an erroneous assumption by the engineer and conductor of train 3211 regarding the location of train 3210. It modified their perception of the train's location to the extent that they ignored rule 92 (leaving a station ahead of schedule).

    On the other hand, the information was unofficial, not subject to any communication standards, and, therefore, not reliable. There were no checks to verify that the message had been received properly and understood. Even if the message had been properly transmitted directly to the crew of train 3211, it would not have authorized train 3211 to pass Mustang ahead of 1:52 p.m. Thus, radio can promote safety and advance operations, but only if it is used with the same safeguards intended in the operating rules."
     
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  13. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks for the clarification, Karl, it helps for greater understanding. I did not mention the SD, meaning (Train Order) Signals Displayed, but that was because I knew Chaffee did not have train order signals. I have to admit I was not fully versed in the 1957 rules book re: forms 19 & 31..
     
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  14. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    This. An exceptionally good thread. Keith and Karl, many thanks for the superb explanations and insights into what is, for me, a very fascinating side of railroad operations.

    Best Regards,
     
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