The Day the Music Died

Discussion in 'General' started by Karl, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    03BF879F-4D03-40B1-A0C0-D48D6FDAEDBB.jpeg Fifty years ago today the music died. The Southland left KC and Birmingham for the last time
     
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  2. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    My goodness, how fast time flies! 50 years!
    K
     
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  3. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    BOOOOOOOO HOOOOOO!
     
  4. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    It's probably been addressed elsewhere around these parts, but I've always found it interesting that KC-Birmingham service outlasted STL-OKC service, particularly #9/10. Did a mail contract keep 101/102 running for a couple of years longer than it probably should have survived?

    Best Regards,
     
  5. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Chris -
    My belief is that the StL-OkC service died early because it had to compete with I-44, StL to Oklahoma. The KC-Birmingham service had no northwest to southeast interstate to compete against, just old US highways and state highway short cuts, none direct.
    When we drove to Olathe in March, from St Louis, I chose to go back to Florida out of the KC area by heading southeast - through Missouri, Arkansas &
    Tennessee. Never again! It took us three days to get back to Naples, vs one & two thirds to get to StL from Naples earlier (though we did detour to visit Panama City which was much of the reason for the greater time to get back home).
    But, there is no good, direct, high speed way to I-75 from KC as there is from StL. Much of the route from StL to Oklahoma parallels the Frisco.
    K
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  6. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    My father was surprised as well. I remember a conversation with him during which he expressed his sadness over the loss of the Meteor. He also noted that there was a certain loss of corporate prestige that was felt by many Frisco folks when the Frisco discontinued 9 and 10. He also noted that the St Louis to OKC route provided the bulk of the passenger revenue, and it also carried the pride of the Frisco's fleet. So when the Oklahoman died on May 13, 1967, he was genuinely surprised that 101 and 102 out lasted it. To be sure, the Southland and the Oklahoman were sops to the ICC, so the question became, when would the Frisco passenger train die, and not if Frisco the passenger train would survive.

    I concur with Ken's assessment. Interstate Highway 44 killed the Frisco's St Louis-Oklahoma City passenger traffic. Ken is also correct about a direct and convenient highway route between KC and the Southeast; even today, it's lacking. I have often wondered why some still propose to inaugurate AMTRAK service between St Louis and Oklahoma City, but yet there are few calls for AMTRAK service from KC to the Southeast.

    I have been working (on and off) on an essay, which discusses Frisco passenger service and the Frisco's choice for diesel power that service. My basic thesis is that before 1929, the signs were in place so that investment in the passenger train should be limited, and during the Frisco's dieselization process, the management chose the wrong power (read E-units; I know it's heresy) for its passenger service.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
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  7. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl - Agree!
    In hindsight, F-units would have been better than E's. Given the "up and down and around" characteristic of much of the Frisco, E's were not the correct choice, beautiful as they are. ATSF did the same - bought E's first, then quickly changed and bought F's for passenger service.
    The six E7's (plus the two MKT E7's) were purchased with 100+MPH gearing. When the E8's came, geared for 85MPH (I think), the E7's were regeared to match. They were better on the hills and curves with that lower speed gearing.
    Hmmm - wonder what Racehorse/Redbird F3's & F7's would have looked like. (Neat, but not as neat as the E7's & E8's).
    K
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  8. geep07

    geep07 Member

    Well Ken,
    I thinks someone out there might just paint an F3 or an F7 in the Racehorse/Redbird scheme just to see what it would look like!
    Bet jaws will drop!

    John
     
  9. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl and I have been e-mailing about this issue. He suggests a Frisco set of FP7A-F7B-FP7A would have been ideal for the SLSF passenger service, instead of the E's. I think he is correct. Plus that lash up would likely really look good in the Racehorse/Redbird scheme.
    I wonder if they would have given the F7B's horse names as well?
    Trouble is, we (the SLSF) still would have had the E7's on the roster, as they arrived in 1947, two plus years before the FP7 and F7, or E8, models were introduced. Could have gone with all F3's earlier, but there was no FP3 model to be had.
    Oh well, they are all gone now. And as we all appreciate, the E7's and E8's were sensational lookers!
    All I ever rode behind Frisco E's was the Eastern division between St Louis and Rolla/Newburg. I never really noticed the usual set of two E's on #'s 9/10 and/or #'s 3/4 struggled much on Valley Park Hill, Iron Hill or Rolla Hill. Earlier on, these trains, plus #'s 1/2, were much longer however.

    K
     
  10. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Very interesting stuff. It doesn't seem to make sense to ditch the train bringing in most of the revenue. Wonder if the ICC would have mandated keeping the train that was more "essential," e.g. the one serving a route not readily served by an interstate, without any regard to dollars/cents?

    I simply can't wrap my mind around any for-profit business eliminating one of "anything" that brings in more revenue that the other "something" that remains. Admittedly, I've seen sentimentality muddle otherwise obvious business decisions, but it sounds like if that were the case, the Frisco would have kept 9/10 a little longer, hands-down.

    Karl, it'll undoubtedly be well worth the wait. Looking forward to it.

    Best Regards,
     
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  11. gstout

    gstout Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Larry Thomas writing in his various magazine articles and annual TRRA issues has mentioned numerous times that, at least up to and including the War years, the METEOR was often the longest train under the train shed at St. Louis Unions Station. That changed quickly once the war was over and both highways and automobiles began to take a more contemporary form, and the streamliners never ran as long as the heavyweight trains of the 1940s. So Karl, when you set about writing your essay on Frisco passenger service, please don't sugar-coat the story. I know this will be hard for lots of devotees to take, but during the streamliner era, Frisco's trains were adequate, but not anything special--with or without E-units. The METEOR was pretty to look at (Dubin rightly called it a "stunning livery"), but it was basically just a coach-and-sleeper operation that very seldom ran as a pure streamliner because there weren't enough lightweight cars to fill out the consists (think: heavyweight baggage-express cars). The TEXAS SPECIAL wasn't any better and, thanks in large part to the sloppiness of the Katy end of things, got its lunch handed to it by the much more comprehensive TEXAS EAGLE service and, on the St. Louis end, was finished before 1960. The last two Frisco trains, especially after exterior appearances deteriorated badly, were an embarrassment; look at the photos of the final SOUTHLAND. That said, I wish things had turned out better and will look forward to your finished product.

    GS
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  12. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter


    In my opinion the post-war purchase of the EA-7’s and the 3, light-weight train sets was the worst investment made after the war by the Frisco. The Frisco needed new rail.
     
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  13. kenmc

    kenmc KenMc Frisco.org Supporter

    I have several opinions on this subject.

    First, the E-8s were perfect for most of the trains that needed only a single unit, since they had 2250 hp instead of the FP-7's 1500 hp, which was marginal for anything more than four cars. Two F units would have been required. Second, they had dual diesel engines and dual steam generators for reliability, plus larger fuel tanks that enabled them to go a full division without refueling.

    Finally, it was the Redbirds that made me fall in love with the Frisco as a youngster. I remember my dad and myself taking my cousin to catch the train at Cape Girardeau for St Louis. Dad told me the name of the train was the Sunnyland. To which I replied, "Then why does it have the name 'Whirlaway' on the nose? I don't think he liked me very much after that, even though it was an honest question. To top it all off, they had a deep-throated explosive sound leaving the gate that was positively thrilling, like no other.

    Here's what did it for me. No F unit could compare, not even a Santa Fe warbonnet.

    I rest my case.

    Ken McElreath
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  14. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I look forward to Karl's article as well. With the benefit of hindsight it's easy to state that it was an unwise investment, so I'm curious why the management made the decision that they did. Rail service, both freight and passenger, was at very high levels all during the war, and several railroads invested in new equipment in the postwar era, partly because older equipment was so worn out but also to attract passengers that never came. I wonder how much of the decision was emotionally driven...

    True, there was no FP3, but it was certainly possible to get F3s (and later F7s) with steam generators. Several railroads used F units for passenger service, especially in hilly terrain. The Frisco could have skipped the E7s and E8s entirely. That said...

    No argument from me, as much as I love F units. I bought a Proto 2000 E8 in Frisco racehorse scheme from Trainworld years ago solely because it was so good looking in the sales flyer. That's what started me on the Frisco.

    Sure, the E8 had more power, but they could always add Bs to the F unit. They even did it with E8s at times--I've seen pictures of E8s with an F3B or F7B when they needed more power, which is an odd look.
     
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  15. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I agree with Ken McElreath totally. The Frisco "Racehorses", aka "Redbirds", your choice, certainly must have greatly added to the number of new Frisco fans. As a kid, we journeyed to StL Union Station often to watch the action there, but I barely remember the Frisco E's other than the fact they were red.
    My first chance to see them up close was on a visit to Rolla during my junior year of high school - part of the process to decide on where to go to engineering school. We were walking around the vast Rolla downtown area (aka Pine St) after having lunch at the Edwin Long Hotel, when we heard the horn of an approaching train. As we were very close to the depot, we headed down to check it out. It was #3, the Will Rogers, pulling in from St Louis. It was powered by SLSF 2018 in the lead, "Ponder", followed by SLSF 2017, "Pensive". That was the first time I was close to a Frisco E-unit. I remember "Ponder" was in the lead as, by chance, we had met with Assistant Dean Paul Ponder, Dean of Registrations as I recall, that morning.
    As close as we were to the E's, I noticed the individual horse names and the beauty of the gold and white lettering and striping. I had to learn what those names were about. When I found out, and saw how many E-units the SLSF had, all with different names, I too was hooked.
    The wonderful sound of those two E's leaving town also grabbed me, that sound of course was often heard again as later in school, I used Meteor #9's arrival and departure in the mid-evening as a chance for a study break.
    Ken W

    ps - On the way out of town, we went up Frisco park (I forget its correct name) to take a look at SLSF 1501 sitting at her perch by the pond. 1501 was in good shape back then, not yet vandalized, and she looked terrific. 1501 also confirmed my new Frisco fan career!
     
  16. gstout

    gstout Member Frisco.org Supporter

    The question of whether Frisco had used FP7s instead of E-units seems moot. Different motive power would not have any way changed the nature of the passenger service, would not have made it more profitable or in any way prolonged it.

    GS
     
  17. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    And, we still would have had the six E7's.

    K
     
  18. Phred

    Phred Member

    Some of my earliest memories are of my dad taking me to Lindenwood Yard to watch the Texas Special pass by. We lived a few blocks away on Hancock, if it ended service before 1960, i would have been 3 or younger when he was taking me to see it and that's why I don't remember much detail. One of the times that stands out is when the train was stopped and the crew waved us in and gave us a ride to the end of the yard.

    Would there have been another passenger train that would have passed through in the afternoon that we could have watched after the Texas Special was discontinued? I remember one time when there was a Pullman green car on the end with large windows and a diaphragm on it. Not the streamline observation car i would have expected, but I could see them using other cars near the end or it could have been a private or business car.
     
  19. gstout

    gstout Member Frisco.org Supporter

    In 1960 the westbound METEOR would have passed through Lindenwood about 6:20 PM; the eastbound around 7:30 in the morning. (I am approximating times because athe PTT I am using does not indicate a time for Lindenwood.)

    The westbound WILL ROGERS, which was mostly a heavyweight train, went west in the morning, east after dark. The SUNNYLAND (for Memphis) went out about 9:00 AM (at Lindenwood) and came north just after 3:00 PM. That was pretty much it.

    GS
     
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  20. Phred

    Phred Member

    Thanks Greg. I suspect that after the demise of the Texas Special, we were watching the westbound Meteor, and dad didn't tell me it was a different train because I wanted to see the Texas Special.
     

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