Streamlined equipment on the K.C. - Florida Special?

Does anyone know if the K.C. - Fla. Special regularly used or had dedicated streamlined equipment like the Meteor or the Texas Special? When I was a kid (early to mid - '60's) my siblings and I used to ride trains 101 & 102 from Springfield to Imboden AR to visit family - very clearly don't remember anything but heavyweight coaches on those trains, no Pullmans and no food service at all. (Despite what the attached timetable indicates)

http://www.oocities.org/orvillei/Frisco1967.html

 

I know by the 1960s, the Frisco did not have any pure lightweight trains left on the system. Some trains were still all heavyweight, but others, such as te Kansas City - Florida Special, were a mixture of lightweight and heavyweight cars.

Paul

 

O.K., thanks...so, the lightweight equipment by the '60s was being no longer being used as sets on the TX Special or Meteor, but distributed across the system for all remaining passenger trains? Wonder why and how that decision was made.

 

After the Frisco discontinued the Texas Special, those cars became available for use on other trains. By the early 60's, the KCFS was down to one KC-Jacksonville sleeper, and the Southern and Frisco could assemble a train set with lightweight equipment. The wording in the advertisements and PTT's were worded carefully to reflect that all "passenger-carrying cars" are streamlined and light-weight. As your ETT indicates the same was true of the Southland, trains 101 & 102. I rode 101 & 102 on numerous occasions, and its equipment was as advertised. It usually carried one light-weight chair car plus one of the light-weight chair-lounge-buffets. The head-end was almost always heavy-weight equipment.

Since 102 & 101 did not call on Imboden (read your PTT), I suspect the trains to which you refer were 107 and 108, The Sunnyland. The Sunnyland rarely carried light-weight equipment.

 

Some of those Texas Special and Meteor cars were extras even before the Texas Special was discontinued and were showing up on the KCFS and Meteor. One of the Meteor chair-buffet-lounges (1651 or 1652) was a regular on the Texas Special in the 1950's. It's pictured in Ray George's Katy Lines In Color book. Some of the cars still had Texas Special lettering as late as 1962 or 1963.

TG

 

Was it the quality of rolling stock or what? From what read makes it sound like Frisco bought some lightweght cars before WW2, they were used for a while, then as time goes on these were replaced by heavyweight cars dating back to WW1 or before? Sounds like what have been educated to being called being railroaded? Is an interesting reality to the many folks who invest to offered lightweight sets with such things as Dome cars or Dome Observation cars. Another reason for them to research before buying. Many Thanks!

Ricky

 

The first Frisco lightweight cars were delivered after WW II, 1948. The Texas Special and Meteor didn't use all their equipment all the time, there were spare coaches and sleepers. My theory was that they could use those cars regularly on the KCFS and use heavyweights as backups on all three trains. Thus the newer cars would be run the most miles.

Tom G.

 

Frisco bought three trainsets of lightweight cars as Tom indicated, in 1948. Two sets were for the METEOR and one for the Frisco contribution to the TEXAS SPECIAL pool. However, there were only three lightweight head-end cars, all RPOs, so pretty much any Frisco passenger train would have included heavyweight M&E cars, although some were repainted into red and silver to match the streamliners. Same thing for some dining cars. After 1959 when Frisco backed out of the TXSP operation, the cars migrated to other trains, mostly the KC-FLA SPECIAL, since that was the next best thing on the railroad. Heavyweight passenger-carrying cars nevertheless remained in service at least until 1965 when the Frisco skinnied down to just two passenger schedules. A number of the lightweight cars (Frisco and Katy cars both) were sold to the Northern Pacific, Great Northern and even the SP&S and wound up in the consist of the WESTERN STAR and MAINSTREETER. The red window bands were painted over either with NP green or GN Big Sky Blue. A few of these cars even lasted into the early Amtrak years. However, despite Rivarossi's best efforts to convince you otherwise, there were no Frisco domes.

GS

 

Thanks so much! Oh I knew that about the domes and front end units. It makes for a fantastic mixture of cars especially before mail was taken over elsewhere, toss in the TxSp cars and some PRR sleepers and you have imagination gone wild. I have to admit I bought before researched! LOL! Rick|-|

 

The Meteor and Texas Special trainsets were equipped with electro-pneumatic brakes, which allowed for all the brakes in the trainset to be applied/released intantaneously which allowed for faster sets and releases. Trains so equipped were able to run right up to a speed restriction, and do it with less slack action. Once the trainsets began including cars without electro-pneumatic brakes, the enginemen could no longer use this type of braking, and the schedule was lengthened.

 

When the EA-7's were rebuilt, they were regeared to 85mph (from 100mph), and the electropneumatic brakes were disabled (removed). See Ken's locomotive diagram http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=12367&d=1292537041 .

 

Thanks much for the response. What time period were you riding #101 - #102? We made our last trip on the Frisco in the summer of '64, and boarded it at Imboden...I seem to remember my grandfather talking to the agent in the little wooden depot before the train arrived, I imagine the agent probably had to radio the engineer to ensure that they stopped and picked us up. I can still hear my grandmother telling me as we boarded "make sure you sit on the left side"...that was so we could get a good look at the waterfalls on the Spring River, as the tracks followed the Spring River valley up to Thayer.

 

Thanks for the info. If memory serves me correct, I remember going down to the depot in Springfield (early '60s) to pick up my grandmother coming up from Arkansas, and seeing a few various lightweight/streamlined cars from other roads. Seems like they were SP cars, I think...memory is a little foggy at age 59. Also, one summer instead of putting us kids on the train, the parents drove us down to AR...the highway parallels the Frisco main for quite a while in several places, and I can remember passing one of the KC - Birmingham trains, and being very intrigued by the lightweight red & silver cars on the tail end. As I mentioned, the times we rode it it was all heavyweight cars with no food service or sleepers.

I can say, literally, that I can't really remember I time when I wasn't fascinated by the Frisco...grew up in Springfield just a stone's throw from the old Chadwick branch.

 

With all the talk about heavyweight cars I am surprised that the Kansas City and Memphis were not mentioned. She was a real treat, being a modernized heavyweight that received corrugated panels (possibly from the rebuilt E7As) and even retained these panels after being transferred to maintenance of way service. Few examples ever existed of a road going to this great a length to make a car match newer lightweights (Chicago & Eastern Illinois and Canadian Pacific quickly come to mind while the Burlington did do one business car). Don't know what happened to the car but here are a couple of links to shots of it...

http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/friscoline/images/photos/p01617.jpg
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/friscoline/images/photos/p00890.jpg
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/friscoline/images/photos/p01778.jpg
http://www.frisco.org/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=3922&d=1150981895
http://condrenrails.com/Frisco%20Catalog/Others/FR739.jpg
http://condrenrails.com/Frisco Catalog/Others/FR535.jpg

 

"Kansas City" and "Memphis" also had a sister named "Birmingham." The KC-Florida Special required three trainsets. "Kansas City" was converted to diner-lounge (from 1508) in April 1936 and wore the Frisco green paint scheme. In April 1941 it was painted in the blue/gray Firefly-Meteor colors. In May 1947 it was painted back to green. It was painted in the shadow stripe scheme w/red trim (on the ends, roof and window area) and silver trucks in October 1950. The stainless fluting was added (still with red trim) April 1955. All these cars probably had black trucks after fluting was added (see "Frisco In Color" page 120).
"Springfield" was converted (from 1510) in October 1937--Painted ALL red w/ Scotchlite lettering in October 1952--Name was changed to "Memphis" 6-19-54--Fluting added April 1955.
"Birmingham" was converted (from 1509) 4-36--Fluting w/red trim added 12-54. All these cars had small crew sleeping areas added about 1959.

TG

 

Briefly, The Southland, Trains 101 and 102, were short-lived trains. On Sept 17, 1965 the Frisco discontinued all of its remaining passenger trains, The Meteor (Trains 9 & 10), The Will Rogers (Trains 3 & 4), The Kansas City – Florida Special (Trains 105 & 106), The Sunnyland (Trains 107 & 108) and its STL connection (807 & 808), and the Ft Smith Local (Trains (709 & 710). On Sept 18, 1965, two replacement trains, The Oklahoman (Trains 1 & 2), and The Southland (Trains 101 & 102) began service between STL-OKC and KC-Birmingham, respectively. The Oklahoman provided daylight service; it did not carry a Pullman. The Southland carried one of the 14-4 light-weight Pullmans. Passenger traffic continued to decline, and The Oklahoman was discontinued on May 13, 1967; The Southland made its last run on December 8, 1967, and the Frisco became freight-only.
My dad worked for the Frisco, and we lived in Springfield, Chaffee, and KC, so most of our travel in the region was made by Frisco passenger trains whenever possible. I was able to ride between Chaffee-STL-Springfield-KC, and points in between on numerous occasions. Once we were older than 6, the Frisco required a trip pass for my siblings and I to ride, and the railroad would grant trip-passes, which were good for 3 months when requested. I believe that my dad could request up to 4 passes per year. After the trip-pass was used for the return trip, the conductor would keep it, and he submitted it with his receipts. Fortunately, Ed Heiss, who was a collector of railroad ephemera, a friend of my dad, and a Frisco employee came across one of our used passes, and he sent it to me some twenty years after its use. It is a prized possession, and it is framed and hangs in my den.

The “Requestor”, gew, was George E. Warfel, who was the Chief Engineer on the Frisco, and my dad’s boss. You will also note that the “punches” on the going trip are different than the single “punch” on the return trip; each conductor had his own punch style, which might be likened to a cattle brand. My last trip on a Frisco passenger train came on Thanksgiving Day, 1967; my dad got a cab pass for my brother and me, and we rode from KC to Ft Scott. Barely a week later, the train was gone forever.
Since your last ride on the Frisco occurred during 1964, you rode The Sunnyland between Imboden and Springfield. I have attached a copy of its schedule from August 1960.

Between 1960 and 1965, the schedule remained more or less the same as did its consist. It carried a heavy-weight buffet between KC and Springfield. Between KC and Springfield, a single E-unit pulled a train consisting of 2 or 3 baggage cars, a baggage RPO, 1 or 2 heavy-weight chair cars, with the heavy-weight buffet. The length of the train varied seasonally. It rarely carried any lightweight equipment. It made “all stops” between KC and Birmingham, although some were conditional. Frisco passenger trains did not carry radios, but you need not have worried about the train stopping at Imboden. As the schedule shows, Imboden was not a conditional stop. The view along the Spring River must have been great.

 

Don't forget...for a time, the KCFS used "pool" UP sleepers KC to Birmingham...About the same time frame of the dissolution of the Katy-Frisco arrangements. I don't have the list in front of me, but I believe these were "American" sleepers,

 

Karl; Thanks very much for the highly interesting info! I think I'd give up a year of my life to ride in the cab of a Frisco E-8...especially if it was running from Spfld. to Memphis. And yes, you're right - the stretch where the tracks follow the Spring River up from Imboden to just below Thayer/Mammoth Spring was spectacular, and still is. Also, if memory is correct, isn't there a tunnel in there somewhere? I think just north of Hardy? So, when you mention "conditional stops", I'm assuming that meant they weren't obligated to stop unless there were passengers? I remember the train seemed to stop at virtually every town along the way, to a young kid it seemed to take forever. A somewhat amusing story my family still chuckles over during get-togethers: On the last trip we made summer of '64, my younger brother, my older sister and I were on "The Sunnyland" returning from AR and for some reason my parents thought it would be a fun thing to drive out to Rogersville, (several miles outside of Springfield) board the train and ride it the remainder of the way into Springfield with us kids. Rogersville must've been a whistle stop, because when the train arrived (on time, too) it went screaming by the depot at what my Dad claims was high speed, with him standing on the platform futilely waving a handkerchief at it. It just kept on going, around that big curve there west of Rogersville and was disappearing down the tracks - my parents had given up on it and were walking back to the car when they suddenly realized it was actually stopping...lo and behold, it backed all the way back up to the depot and they boarded. Can still remember my Mom laughing as she made her way up the aisle to sit next to us.

It's a small world, isn't it? I believe I bought some railroad memorabilia from Ed Heiss when I was a kid - hadn't even thought of that in ages. I'm fairly certain it must've been in 1968, as the Frisco had discontinued passenger service not long before I contacted him...I responded to an ad he'd placed in "Trains" magazine. I purchased an "Official Railway Guide", some Frisco patches and some other items which I can't remember now...my father still has the Guide. Ed Heiss lived on the south side of Springfield, didn't he? He delivered the items personally, along with his son...a real nice guy.

 

What does "pool" mean"? Would these be UP sleepers coming out of the Pacific Northwest or the Bay Area bound for Florida?