SLSF ALCo FA1/FB1 - P2K

Discussion in 'Diesel Locomotives' started by meteor910, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    A bit of a digression - I'm a more visual learner than auditory but a sound decoder could be the one draw to 70s-era modeling for the simple reason that it was the soundtrack of my childhood.

    Anytime I rode my bike over the Yoakum Ave. crossing on my way to Graser-Shy Supermarket in Chaffee to buy baseball cards, there would sit a unit or two, idling.

    I hear that noise today and as Mr. Clemens once wrote, "The things about me and before me made me feel like a boy again--convinced me that I was a boy again, and that I had simply been dreaming an unusually long dream ."

    Hope that good pictures of the FAs work out and find their way here, Ken. Real-life performance notwithstanding, I like their aesthetics!
     
  2. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I've finished my P2K Frisco ALCo FA1/FB1/FA1 set - finally! Though not perfect, they turned out well. I'm not much of a photographer, but attached are some pics I took.

    A few of you have asked what all I did to them. I am pretty happy with the job P2K did on the painting and lettering, so few basic changes were done. My main gripe with the P2K finish is the green anti-glare panel on the noses of the FA's. The green is too light and way too bright. However, I left it as is for now. I kept the P2K numbers: FA1's are SLSF 5200 and SLSF 5215, FB1 is SLSF 5300. (I also had SLSF 5315, but sold it a year or so ago to a fellow Friscophile. I generally run only A-B-A lash-ups on my small layout).

    Following, in no particular order, is a listing of the detail work I added to the basic P2K Frisco ALCo FA1/FB1 as they came out of their boxes:

    - added road number decals to the body sides (Microscale 87-85)
    - blackened the pilot cut lever handles on the FA's
    - blackened the side hand rails (these were yellow on Frisco's ALCo's as delivered, so the P2K model is correct, though the yellow is too bright), but shortly after delivery SLSF painted them black (to match the EMD F3's/F7's, which came with black hand rails)
    - added a speed recorder cable to the forward axle of the left front truck of the FA's (DW 284)
    - replaced the stock right-side horn on the FA's with a five-chime set, all facing forward (Cal Scale 316)
    - added a "nail" radio antenna to SLSF 5215, but not to SLSF 5200 (yep!, I used a small nail). Note: my SLSF 5215 was finished as per my pic of SLSF 5220 - which shows a "nail" antenna and a water-cooled turbo.
    - blackened the turbo exhaust discharges, applied a ring of rust around the top. SLSF 5200 and SLSF 5300 were given their as-delivered air-cooled turbo exhausts. SLSF 5215 was given the water-cooled turbo exhaust as applied by ALCo on a retro-fit. (Note the top view pic: air-cooled on 5200 to the left, water-cooled on 5215 on the right. The air-turbo is oriented length-wise, the water-turbo is mounted cross-wise).
    - added nose door hand rails to the FA's, painted black
    - added ladder-rest grabs to the nose of the FA's, painted black (DA 6603)
    - added roof grabs above the windshields on the FA's, painted black
    - added dot of silver on the marker lights of the FA's
    - added air line to the pilot of the FA's (Cal Scale 276)
    - replaced P2K's couplers with Kadee #5's

    That's about it. I really like the way the three units close-couple to each other.

    SLSF 5200 and SLSF 5300 run very well, smooth, quiet. SLSF 5215 is slower, and has developed a bad sounding noise after only about ten-minutes of operation, so I'll have to get inside and see what its problem is. Some of the original P2K FA1/FB1 drives were not so hot, but the Frisco units were from P2K's second release and were supposedly corrected.

    Comments, questions, gripes, suggestions ..... all welcome!

    I have an A-B-A set of GM&O P2K FA1/FB1's to do next.

    Ken |-|
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2008
  3. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Wow Ken, they look great. Thanks for posting the photos and listing your superdetailing. I will definitely use your post as a guide.

    Best Regards,
    mike
     
  4. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Nice work on your engines Ken! I found another view of a Frisco FA from above: in "Trackside Around St. Louis-1952-1959" page 93. On the same page is another FA without an anti-glare panel. edit: I softened the anti-glare panels on my Life-Like N scale FA's with very fine sand paper.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2008
  5. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    They look terrific, Ken.

    Is it possible you have a cracked axle gear on 5215? I have a Proto BL2 (don't ask) with that problem. I emailed Walthers and they sent me new wheelsets and gears and that solved the problem.

    Pop the cover off the wheelsets, and inspect the axles for cracks, or try to spin a wheelset in opposite directions with your thumbs. If it's split, they'll move fairly easily.
     
  6. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Thanks all for your comments.

    The 5215 runs quietly when it is alone. I don't think it has any serious troubles. In the A-B-A set, it quickly develops a strained, grinding noise - as it wants to run slower than the other two units (5200 & 5300), in either direction. Perhaps 5215 just needs break-in time, as it has only a few minutes of run time, while the other two chassis have been run for many hours. If troubles continue, my back-up plan is to substitute a GM&O FA/FB chassis for 5215, or just make 5215 (or 5300) a dummy. I also have a Milwaukee friend at Walthers - I will consult with him on this problem if it persists. He has provided me wheels, gears and axles for other previous P2K serious troubles (drives for GP-30, GP-9, yuk!).

    I should also have noted in my comments of last night - when I posted the pics, that I am not real happy with P2K's shade of yellow used on their Frisco FA1/FB1 models - it is too light. The three A/B/A P2K's mate up well with my two, ancient Train Minature ALCo's (SLSF 5208 & SLSF 5302) - they even run OK together (5208 has been repowered with a "TanCan" motor, 5302 is a dummy), but the different shades of yellow (I did 5208 & 5302 in a darker, more accurate shade of yellow based on Floquil Reefer Yellow) bothers me somewhat. I don't know what I can do about the lighter P2K color.

    Tom - Thanks for your reference to the ALCo pics in the St Louis "Trackside" book! I had forgotten about those. The 5220 color pic on the top of p93 is the same pic as the one I have been commenting on for SLSF 5220, though my print, other than that in the book, is b/w, and is way finer in detail when viewed under a magnifying glass. Note 5220 has a "nail" antenna mounted, and has the water-turbo fitted. The 5219 at the bottom of p93 is in the shadow of the Diesel shop at Lindenwood, and I have trouble seeing great detail on the roof, though it looks to still have the original air-turbo on top. Also, it has no radio antenna. The 5220 pic is indicated to be from 1958, the 5219 is from 1954. That gives us some idea of when re-turbo jobs and radio additions were done.

    SL-SF = Still Learning-Still Fascinating!

    Ken |-|
     
  7. gjslsffan

    gjslsffan Staff Member Staff Member

    Greeting All,

    This is a slight variation on your original post but same loco. I am trying to model an SLSF Alco FB1 that had been fitted with the EMD prime mover and was wondering if anyone knew where the EMD exhaust stacks went. I have one photo but it does not show clearly where they should go. And did they survive long enough to get the flared srark arrestors?
    Regards
    Tom Holley
    Grand Junction CO
     
  8. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom -

    This pic should help - SLSF 5208, a FA1, on the Arkansas side of the Mississippi at Memphis.

    My reference is that this is a J. Parker Lamb photo, taken with his usual excellence, posted on Mike Condren's public web site. I trust I'm not violating any copyright matters by posting this, but I'm sure I'll hear about it if I am. :rolleyes:

    You can see the two EMD 567 exhausts sticking up on the roof line, giving you the perspective on where to mount them end-to-end on your EMD repowered FB1 model. The pic is of a FA1, but the exhausts would be at the same locations measured from the rear of the unit on a FB1. They obviously are mounted on the roof centerline side-to-side.

    Hope this answers your question. I can find no other FA1/FB1 photo in my SLSF collection showing a real clear top view of the EMD exhausts on the roof.

    Ken |-|
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2008
  9. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    On the bottom of page 94 of Marre/Harper's Frisco Diesel Power is shown a photo of repowered FB1 190 equiped with spark arrestors. On page 85 Marre states "Mandated spark-arresting devices of various designs were applied to external exhaust stacks during 1964." Although he's writing about EMD F units here, photographic evidence suggests that this applied to repowered Alco cab units as well. Some B units survived until September 1969.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2008
  10. gjslsffan

    gjslsffan Staff Member Staff Member

    Thanks to all,
    You have all been invaluable for helping with the last isue on modeling the
    FB 190. Ken that photo will help me get the flared spark arrestors as close as it can be done I think. I did indeed find in the the book Marre/Harper's Frisco Power the picture, and that sealed the deal and the number problem too.
    Thanks again to all that responded
    Tom Holley
    Grand Junction CO
     
  11. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Yes, you will.

    Unless you were the original poster of the work, or the website has a release specifcally stating the work is in the public domain, if you take something from one website and post it to another site, that is a copyright violation. It doesn't matter if the website is public or private.

    Some of us make our living from copyrighted materials, so this is a subject near and dear to both our hearts and our pocketbooks.

    In this case, you can get the same information into the forum by posting a LINK to the image instead of the image itself. This both cuts down on the storage required for the forum AND preserves the copyright which Mike could choose to enforce.

    Paul
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2008
  12. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    FYI, my recently completed Frisco P2K FA1, SLSF 5215, is now running just as smoothly as its two older mates - P2K's FA1 SLSF 5200 and FB1 SLSF 5300. All that was needed for SLSF 5215 was some quality break-in time. It got it, and all is well. The A-B-A set runs very smoothly, will pull anything I can hook up to it, and looks great.

    A question for those of you who, like me, are ALCo fans. What was the best looking FA/FB? I'd rate GM&O and Erie #1 and #2, respectively, but would slide the SLSF units in as #3. Any other opinions? NYC was also pretty neat.

    Ken |-|
     
  13. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I always thought the Wabash Bluebird scheme looked very nice on the FA.
     
  14. railroadpete

    railroadpete Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Does anyone here know if any un-repowered Alco FA's or RS2's were used on the Monet-Wichita line between 1958-1960?

    Thanks!
     
  15. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Howdy,

    After reading the FA1 threads and Ken's message about detailing the FA, I noticed there are three types of exhausts used on the FA's. Could someone verify that these were the correct types and detail parts to represent them?

    1. Stock exhaust for the air cooled turbo on Alco engine- NA
    2. Watercooled exhaust on Alco motor - Detail Associates/Walthers Part # 229-2401
    3. Spark arrestor exhaust on EMD remotered - Detail Associates/Walthers Part # 235-123
    Best regards,
    mike
     
  16. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Mike - There actually are four exhaust versions on Frisco FA/FB's:

    o Alco air cooled turbo
    o Alco water cooled turbo
    o EMD stacks
    o EMD stacks with spark arrestors

    The Proto 2000 FA/FB's come with both versions of the Alco turbo exhausts.

    Ken
     
  17. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Mike -

    Let's get all these parts straight for Frisco Alco FA1/FB1 models in HO - both stock Alco powered and later repowerings by EMD:

    Alco 244 powered:

    o The Frisco units, as delivered, had the Alco 244 engine air-cooled turbos. This thing was a disaster. The best part to use is the Proto 2000 air-cooled turbo exhaust, which comes with the P2K FA/FB's. This is the exhaust that runs LENGTHWISE to the body of the FA/FB.

    o Alco, realizing that their air-cooled 244 was no good, offered to refit their units with a water-cooled turbo. The Frisco agreed and did this to several of their units. The best part to use for a re-turboed Frisco FA/FB is the water-cooled turbo part that also comes with the P2K FA/FB units. This is the exhaust that runs CROSSWISE to the body of the FA/FB. It worked well and solved the problem.

    o The Frisco, however (among many others), was still not happy with Alco and repowered many of their FA/FB/RS2 units with EMD 567BC's and 567C's.

    EMD repowered FA/FB's:

    o The repowered Alco's at EMD used the EMD 567BC & 567C engines. I'm not sure what stack they used - one of the following:

    - The stock EMD F3/F7/F9/BL2 2-cycle non-turbo stack - represented by Details Associates 229-2401. This stack has a slight taper, I'm not sure this was used on repowerings. Close examination of repowered Frisco FA/FB's might give us the answer - I've not done that.

    - The later GP/SD type EMD 2-cycle non-turbo stack, represented by Details Associates 229-2402. This stack is slightly shorter than the 2401 and has no taper - straight sides. It also has a base plate, which the 2401 does not. This may be the stack used by EMD repowerings of Alco units. If I were to do a repowered FA/FB right now, I'd use this part for the stack. But, this needs to be confirmed.

    o Eventually, the Frisco installed spark arrestors on the repowered Alco FA/FB units. As you suggest, Details West 235-123 is a good part to use for this. However, I generally use Details Associates 229-2101 as it is a bit more delicate. Both parts are fine. Another very good one is Overland #9561, which are brass and quite nice.

    Questions?

    Ken
     
  18. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    After studying a bunch of EMD repowered Frisco Alco FA photos tonight, I am convinced the flared stack, Details Associates, 229-2401, is the correct stack to use for a EMD repowered Alco without spark arrestors. I noticed on several pics that the EMD stacks did have a bit of flare to them. The DA part might be a bit too tall, however.

    The Alco roof remained very clean after the Frisco EMD repowerings. We don't have a pic that shows the exact detail of the roof, so I would suggest the P2K roof panels remain, with round lifting rings at the corners.

    In addition to the panels, the horns, the radio antenna, and the lift rings, I would suggest cleaning off all the other P2K detail on the roof except for the small vents in the panel just forward of the radiator fan.

    On some (not all) Frisco EMD repowered FA's, there was a large capped vent just ahead of the radio antenna. I have looked for a HO part for this gadget, but have yet to locate anything close.

    Ken
     
  19. friscomike

    friscomike Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Howdy Ken,

    Thank you so much for your help with the FA. Your comments are just exactly what I needed. I am anxious to get these on the layout and break them in. Saturday is run day, so perfect to break the locos in.

    Best,
    mike
     
  20. gjslsffan

    gjslsffan Staff Member Staff Member

    Got a few pics tonight of the EMD repowered FA B I did a bit ago, with credits to Ken and others for information and a few photos to view.
    I used the DW 123's to do this one, along with a few DA 2006 eye bolts and
    .010 styrene. Not having any detailed pictures of the roof, I got impatient and just did this.
    At the time the repowerings were done, I do not know if EMD would have gone throught the trouble of bolting on a plate or just simply welding it on.
    might not be totally accurate, but it's close enough for me:)
    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

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