Passenger Operations into Dallas/Ft Worth

Discussion in 'Ft. Worth Subdivision' started by gbmott, Jan 29, 2009.

  1. gbmott

    gbmott Member


    I'm copying below a thread copied from the Passenger Car List on Yahoo. I feel certain that there are people here than can help Jim out.

    "Probably due to my complete unfamiliarity with the scope of pre-WW2 Frisco
    operations in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area, I still don't get it [refers to other thread].

    The Official Guide of Feb. 1938 table #36 shows a line between Sherman
    and Irving with the boldface type "No Passenger Service". Yet table 12
    shows four passenger trains a day, 2 northward and 2 southward,
    serving separately Dallas and Fort Worth. The reference mark against
    the stations in both Dallas and Ft. Worth says MKT station used. Now
    the MKT used the T&P station in Ft. Worth and everybody used the Union
    Depot in Dallas. So that doesn't leave us much further along as far as
    information goes.

    There is no doubt that the Frisco passenger trains served Dallas in
    1938. We have a picture of one of them broken down on what is probably
    the wye at the Union Depot. Question is, how did it get there and,
    when it's fixed and ready to move, what tracks does it take to get
    back to South Irving or Sherman or Denison.

    I'd sure like to solve this puzzle!

    Jim Warsher"

    Thanks, Frisco folks -- Gordon

  2. JimVT

    JimVT Member

    To Gordon Mott & others,

    It's starting to look like this question is going to come up a cypher. Either nobody knows or they know and aren't saying. It just strikes me as odd that, having spent a lifetime in railroading, I can't get a straightforward answer to a simple question. At least I learned that the gas-electrics on the SL-SF were called Bullmooses. Come to think of it, they look like bull mooses. Maybe this is just the wrong crowd to be asking questions about historic operations.

    Jim Warsher
  3. qaprr

    qaprr Member Supporter

    Frisco Passenger Trains operated Tulsa to Sherman to Irving and then over the CRI&P Dallas to Ft. Worth. Sometimes splitting at Sherman with a Train to Dallas and a Train to Ft. Worth, other times running to Dallas and then Ft. Worth. At least one train terminated at Dallas. In 1932, Frisco and MKT entered into a contract to operate joint passenger train service between Tulsa, and Dallas – Ft. Worth via Frisco Lines to Denison thence MKT Lines to Dallas or Ft. Worth with a stub via Frisco Lines from Denison to Irving which was later cut back to Sherman. This agreement lasted until about August of 1944 at which time the Frisco again operated Passenger Trains Tulsa to Irving to Dallas to Ft Worth utilizing the CRI&P between Dallas and Ft. Worth. The Frisco had a 99 year lease on the Irving to Carrolton segment from the CRI&P and for all practical purposes operated this segment as if it were owned; performing all required maintenance, etc. The Frisco operated via trackage rights along with the FW&D over the CRIP between Dallas and Ft. Worth. The Frisco owned and maintained substantial Tracks and Facilities in Ft. Worth. Frisco also at various times operated Passenger Trains joint with the ATSF between Paris and Dallas and of course the Texas Special and Bluebonnet with the MKT.
  4. JimVT

    JimVT Member

    That's the stuff! Thanks so much. I appreciate your taking the trouble to reply. Just about wraps it up.

    Jim Warsher
  5. doug brown

    doug brown Member

    I am trying to establish a contact with anyone who has records of lines aquired by Frisco in 1907 and what happened to their business cars. Doug Brown
  6. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Supporter

    Type in "business cars names and numbers" in search. There's a long thread with info and photos.

    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2009
  7. urogers

    urogers Utah Carroll Rogers

    I worked as a switchman at Dallas union station. Hired out In January 1951. The yard engine was called the seven spot. The day light Yardmaster was H.Young. In ref to the Y at Union Station it would hold seven cars and then we had to run the Y with the engine. I do not remember at any time of a derailment if a FriscoTrain. The worst derailment was directly by the South Tower and the cause was the towerman lined the switch under the train by water street track. The train was a boy scout special. The towerman was pulled out of service for a year. If I recall correctly we had 32 trains into UT each day. We had the round house near Cadiz Street and then about seven tracks in the coach yard. Eleven tracks in the terminal not counting the three tracks for Railway Express near the power house. By the Norh Tower there was three tracks for all of the business cars. I left UT in 1957 and after militay tour in Germany went to freight service in 1959 for the SLSF and retired from the BNSF in 1994. Came out of retirement in 2000 and worked as a Conductor for Herzog Corp. on the Texas Railway Express between Ft Worth and Dallas until October 2003. I now live about two miles from the Dallas Cowboy stadium in Arlington. One other rail that I worked for that was neat was the Great Southwest Railroad by Six Flags Over Texas and we had eleven miles of track. Angus Wynn was the owner.
    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  8. urogers

    urogers Utah Carroll Rogers

    The FriscoTrains ran on the Rock Island beween Dallas and Irving.
    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  9. Joseph Toth

    Joseph Toth Member

    Older maps showing ownership of railroads in the Dallas/Ft. Worth region list the owner of the Irving-Carrollton line as the Rock Island. After the dimise of the Rock how did this affect the ownership of this trackage? Was the Frisco trackage rights agreement set up during the Yoakum Empire extention into Texas when he controlled both the Frisco and RI?

    Also, when did the 99 year lease expire on the Irving-Carrollton segment and did the Frisco or BN purchase the line outright from the Rock's legal department after it shut down operations? Same goes for the line between Ft. Worth and Dallas that made up part of the old Burlington-Rock Island, later becoming the Joint Texas Division of the Ft. Worth & Denver and Rock Island with Frisco retaining trackage rights.

    With ownership of this line did the RI ever operate any local passenger service on the line from Irving to Carrollton that probably originated in either Dallas or Ft. Worth?

    Additionally, Steele Craver, The Locomotive Man at Six Flags Over Texas, told me recently that the interchange between the Rock Island Line in Irving and the Great Southwest Railroad was severed by Union Pacific to prevent BNSF from "invading enemy territory" since UP retained ownership of the GSW when it assorbed the Mopac. What is the current situation in July 2012?

    I appreciate any D/FW rail historicans who can answer the above questions.

    Joe Toth
    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  10. friscochoctaw

    friscochoctaw Member

    I don’t know the dates off hand, but in the earlier days I do know there was a period of time where the Frisco used the Cotton Belt line from Carrollton through Grapevine to Tower 60 in Fort Worth where it get on its own line and/or use the CRIP to get to the “Union” (ATSF) Depot downtown.
    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  11. friscochoctaw

    friscochoctaw Member


    The Rock and Frisco went away the same year 1980. RI’s holdings were leased out for a period until the assets were either sold or abandoned. The Carrollton to Irving segment was eventually sold to Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) and Frisco/BN/BNSF retained the trackage lease through all the mergers.
    I do not believe there was any passenger traffic on that segment once Frisco stopped service to DFW.

    As for the Dallas to Fort Worth segment, it was sold to DART also, and is now owned 50/50 with Trinity Metro (formerly the Fort Worth Transportation Authority) which jointly operate the Trinity Railway Express commuter service operated by Herzog on their behalf. The TRE route runs from the T&P station in Fort Worth to the new station adjacent to the old Union Depot (Santa Fe), then on the old Rock Island all the way to Union Station in Dallas.

    As for the Greater Southwest, my understanding is that it is fully merged into the UP and the trackage and industries are serve solely by Union Pacific out of their yard in Arlington/Grand Prairie. The track from the little sub yard that was GSW all the way to the TRE line has been pulled up.

    John “Friscochoctaw” Crews
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
    Ozarktraveler and Joe Lovett like this.

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