Discussion in 'General' started by gbmott, Dec 24, 2014.

  1. gbmott

    gbmott Member


    When you're my age it's dangerous to dig through old boxes as you never know what will show up that you had long forgotten. Today it was the attached -- an original print with, naturally, no identification whatsoever. It almost looks like 627 on the front number plate, but it is not clear enough to be certain.

    Who can identify this wreck?

    Merry Christmas,
    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  2. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Supporter

    If it's any help, it's probably on one of the main lines (St. Louis-Oklahoma or KC to Memphis/B'ham)--The track and roadbed seem to be in pretty good shape and that's a full length RPO car.

    Tom G.
  3. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Tom: Hmmm. I note the ties are lacking tie plates, that (to me) indicates a lesser line somewhere. Also appears that mainline standards for drainage/ditching/ROW clearing aren't being met, either. Good luck with pinning down where that one is, Gordon!
  4. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Supporter

    The RPO car is all wood that would probably make it before WW I or thereabouts, if that narrows it any...

    Tom G.
  5. Based on the picture linked below, I'm fairly sure it's 627. The arched cab window and the odd vertical pipe under the smokebox are unusual features. If her build date was 1903, as stated in the upper caption, that means the wreck happened sometime after that date.

  6. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    Nice photo Gordon.

    One of my diagram books indicates that the 624-628 group of ten-wheelers was built by Baldwin during January 1904. Except for the steam chests, the group appears to be identical to the 620-623 class, which were built during October 1903. The 620-623 class has D-valves, and the 624-628 class has piston valves. This info is at odds while the photo because our wrecked locomotive has D-valves. Need to dug-up some diagram books.
  7. The photo of SLSF 627 that I linked to is thought to be a copy of a builder's photo, and the loco in the photo definitely has slide valves. I wonder whether any records will show that 627 and/or her sisters were rebuilt with different valves? And if so, when?

  8. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    A good mystery is always fun, and often leads to other mysteries -- in this case being the date when 627 appears to have gotten new valves.

    I can't help with that, but I can complicate things even more by citing some differences between the 624-628 group delivered in 2/04 and the 610-623 group delivered 9-11/03. I'm citing data in the "Description of Locomotives, Passenger, Freight and Miscellaneous Equipment of the Frisco Lines" issued by Geo. A Hancock, Gen'l Sup't Motive Power and dated July 1, 1906. Unfortunately it does not include diagrams but does give statistics. The first difference is that the earlier group were in Tonnage Class 17 while the later group is Tonnage Class 16. Boiler, flue and firebox dimensions are identical and both carried 200 psi pressure. Both have cylinders with a 26" stroke, but the later group is 21"diameter versus 20 1/2" in the earlier ones. The newer group, however, is slightly lighter both in weight on drivers and weight of engine. The biggest difference is drivers -- 56" for the earlier locomotives, 62" for the later. Now for the mystery -- even though lighter (but only 700#s) and with larger drivers the newer group had 7,800 lbs more tractive effort (28,300 vs 20,500)! Could a half inch greater cylinder diameter make that difference, especially given the larger drivers? I wouldn't think so. Everything else is the same except the later group had 30" diameter engine truck versus 28" but this shouldn't have affected anything. Incidentally, there was a symbol in the "Remarks" column of locomotives equipped with piston valves and neither of these group had that symbol.

    So here's a new mystery for when you get tired of speculating about the derailment (my only thoughts here is that I have had that photo for a very long time -- possibly back nearly sixty years when Charles Winters was first working on his FS&W history and I was scouting out families of former employees in Fort Smith to see if they had old photos, which some did, and it is possible I acquired this at the same time -- so there would be some probability that the derailment was somewhere on the Central Division. During the period when it appears the photo was taken this was still the through route to Texas so a full RPO would not have been unusual).

    By the way, in the Description of Equipment there is an explanation of symbols used, including "A. Allfree Hubbell Valve Gear". The only locomotive having this symbol is 749, a former Blackwell, Enid and Southwestern 4-6-0. Anyone want to take a stab at that one??

    Gordon :D
  9. Robert Tomb

    Robert Tomb Member

    This is probably a reference to the "Allfree-Hubbell" valve and steam chest. I have a photograph of a Gulf & Ship Island Railroad 4-4-2 that was equipped with the same valve/steam chest arrangement and equipped with Walscherts valve gear. Most notable is the slant to the valve and steam chest casting. G&SI 14 Gulfport jpg.jpg
    FriscoCharlie likes this.
  10. Jim James

    Jim James Staff Member Staff Member

    That is a beautiful locomotive! This is why I model the steam era.
    Robert Tomb likes this.

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