Marker Light info needed

Discussion in 'Heavyweight Cars' started by timothy_cannon, Feb 26, 2020.

  1. timothy_cannon

    timothy_cannon Member Frisco.org Supporter

    On the attached photo it appears that 4 lens marker lamps are in use. What would the colors be for each lens?

    Thanks!

    Tim
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    If I am not mistaken, red to the rear, green to the front and yellow to the sides.
     
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  3. William Jackson

    William Jackson Bill Jackson

    Markers is what you are talking about. Their is a whole section in the "Consolidated Code" not the one they use now. Used to a Train, could have several sections of a "authorized train" A train would run, if it displayed Green Markers a second train would run, under the first trains authorized schedule. The Red marker as in always, designates the end od a train. I am not sure what the amber marker means other than a warning that the train is stopped in route.
     
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  4. mark

    mark Member

    In the case of Tim’s question, rear marker lights are covered by rule 19.

    In earlier times, Train Signals are covered in the Rules of the Transportation Department, Taking Effect November 1, 1927, rules 17-26, pages 18-26.

    19. The following signals will be displayed, one on each side of the rear of every train, as markers, to indicate the rear of the train; by day, marker lamps, not lighted; by night, green lights to the front and side and red lights to the rear; except when the train is to be passed by another and is clear of the main track, when green lights must be displayed to the front, side and rear, except when a train is on double track is turned out against the current of traffic, when green lights must be displayed to the front and side, a green light to the rear on the side next to the main track on which the current of traffic is in the direction the train is moving, and a red light to the rear on the opposite side.

    By night, in addition to markers, passenger trains will display a red light from the center of the rear edge of rear platform, except when train is to be passed by another and is clear of the main track the light will be obscured.

    In more modern times Train Signals were modified in the Rules of the Transportation Department, effective March 1, 1957, rules 17-26, pages 26-30.

    19. The following signals will be displayed to the rear of every train, as markers, to indicate the rear of the train, but not to indicate the track on which the train is moving or standing:

    (1) By day, marker lamps not lighted, in place provided

    (2) By night, marker lamps lighted showing red to the rear and green to the front and side.

    If a train is not equipped to display markers, a red flag by day and a red light by night will be displayed to indicate the rear of the train.

    19(a). Outside of block signal limits, when a train is clear of main track to be passed by a train, lighted makers must be turned to show green to the front, outside and to the rear, but before main track is again fouled must be restored to display red to the rear.

    When such markers display red to the rear, following train must move at restricted speed until main track is seen to be clear.

    19(b). Unless otherwise instructed, markers must not be removed at terminating points until train is clear of the main track.

    Over time these rules could be amended by Timetable Special Instructions or Bulletins. As an example, System Time Table No. 1, effective Sunday, October 17, 1971 indicates the following on page 46.

    Rule 19 amended: Add:

    Note: A reflectorized marker showing red to the rear may be used by day or night in lieu of marker lamps.

    Other railroads had similar rules. For example, Santa Fe rules required rear markers by night with yellow to the front and side and red to the rear.

    Bill is mixing comments regarding the use of front classification (class) signals with rear marker signals. They are similar in broad nature in that they are “Train Signals”. However, class and marker signals are different – governed by different rules, displayed differently (flags/lights/other markers) and communicate different information. Further, “Train Signals” rules also cover the use of other signals including headlights, oscillating lights, number boards and blue signals.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
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  5. William Jackson

    William Jackson Bill Jackson

    Hi, Mark, the lamps in the photo. What would you call them? On normal Cabooses, the center lamp is a marker. Red. The question was rear markers, I have only seen green, lights displayed at the rear early in my career. I would assume that the rear markers would be turned green, for the rear of a train section. So help me out do you know if the amber signal was used like this? Classification lights are White. I know this light thing, depends on time periods, kinda a bag of worms. Bill
     
  6. William Jackson

    William Jackson Bill Jackson

    Keith, we will see what Mark says, but I think the Amber was only used on switch targets. The trainmen get wormey on the targets. Course Red means Stop, so they like the yellow signals in case some one gets sticky.
     
  7. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

  8. William Jackson

    William Jackson Bill Jackson

    Thanks Karl and Mark for the replies. I believe I have seen that page in the 1946 booklet. Very good explainations
     
  9. mark

    mark Member

    Bill,

    The lamps shown in the photo are rear markers. They are covered by Train Signals rule 19 (see prior post).

    Classification front markers are different. They are covered by Train Signals rule 20.

    First, it is important to understand from the Rules a few Definitions.

    Train: An engine or more than one engine coupled, with or without cars, displaying markers.

    Regular Train: A train authorized by time table schedule.

    Section: One of two or more trains running on the same schedule displaying signals or for which signals are displayed.

    Extra Train: A train not authorized by time table schedule. It may be designated as Extra – for any extra train, except work extra. Work Extra – for work train extra. The terms Passenger Extra, Stock Extra, Fruit Extra, etc. may be used to designate important trains.

    20. All sections except the last will display two green flags and, in addition two green lights (or two green lights only, when authorized by General Order of Special Instructions) in the places provided for that purpose on the front of the engine.

    20(a). Extra trains will display two white flags and, in addition two white lights (or two white lights only, when authorized by General Order or Special Instructions) in the places provided for that purpose on the front of the engine.

    Outlined below are how these rules and definitions apply.

    Remember the definition of a train. It can be just an engine or engines, with or without cars, displaying markers.

    At the rear, as prescribed in the Rules of the Transportation Department per Train Signals markers are displayed as per the definitions and rule 19.

    At the front, as prescribed in the Rules of the Transportation Department per Train Signals the following are displayed per the definitions and rule 20. Each type of train is addressed below.

    Regular train (time table scheduled) – No train signals (flags or lights) are displayed at the front.

    Section (regular train run in two or more parts) – Green train signals (flags and lights) are displayed at the front of each section except the last. No train signals (flags or lights) are displayed at the front of the last section.

    For example, a train run in two sections will display green train signals on the front of the first section and no train signals on the front of the last section. A train run in three or more sections will display green train signals on the front of the first, second, and if applicable subsequent sections, and no train signals on the front of the last section.

    Extra train (extra or work extra) – White train signals (flags and lights) are displayed at the front.

    Each train - regular, section or extra - will display rear markers as prescribed by rule 19.

    Rear marker Train Signals are not classification signals. As indicated above, classification (class) Train Signals are displayed at the front of a train. Depending on the type of train – remember the definitions, class signals are displayed as none (regular train), green (each section, except last the last section) or white (extra or work extra).

    The Frisco did not use yellow or amber color for rear marker (rule 19) or front class (rule 20) Train Signals.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  10. William Jackson

    William Jackson Bill Jackson

    Great explaination, Mark so really in Tims example Red is the only color available. That is to the rear.
     
  11. mark

    mark Member

    Bill,

    Each rear marker lamp has 4 lenses - 3 green and 1 red.

    Per rule 19(1) by day they are not lighted.

    Per rule 19(2) by night they are lighted with red to the rear, green to the inside (car side), forward and outside.

    Per rule 19(a) if the train is outside block signal limits, when the train is clear of the main track to be passed by another train, the markers are turned 90 degrees to display green to the front, side and rear. In this case, each red lens is against the car side. Before the main track is again occupied, the markers are counter turned 90 degrees to again restore red to the rear.

    Per the 1927 and earlier rule book editions, when on double track moving against the current of traffic (left hand running) a green light is displayed to the front, side and rear on the side next to the main track on which current of traffic is in the direction the train is moving and red to the rear on the opposite side.

    Also, prior to 1957, passenger trains in addition to markers displayed an additional red light in the center rear platform, except when the train is to be passed by another and is clear of the main track.

    Per rule 19(b) markers are not removed at terminating points until train is clear of the main track, unless otherwise instructed.

    The link to the illustrations posted by Karl are a good reference.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  12. William Jackson

    William Jackson Bill Jackson

    Good stuff Mark, I knew they had four lenses, I had thought they just was not used. I see now why I was not born in that time period. I would never have qualified as a rules examiner, certified engineer or conductor. Guess I would have blown out for that. BNSF would have lost a good man.
     
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