Lightweight Passenger Cars

Discussion in 'Passenger Equipment' started by john, Jan 9, 2005.

  1. john

    john Guest

    I recently eBay purchased an HO Frisco 4-6-2, 1015 series, which I had painted and numbered 1015. See a photo of the gorgeous job Don Wirth did in the Model Section of this Resource Listing.
    I had bought a couple of Frisco, heavy weight, pullman green cars before getting 1015. The cars don't seem, to me, to be tall enough. Can someone give me the correct height, top of rail to top of car ?
     
  2. mike

    mike Guest

    Greetings John,

    I saw the photo and it is a beauty. I have 1017 upstairs waiting for the paint shop, I hope it looks half as good.

    A diagram in the prototype section says 14' 1 11/16" for the combination car. I would expect them to all be about the same.

    Best Regards,
    mike
     
  3. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2016
  4. Torsoman

    Torsoman Member

    Re: Overland Models Frisco Lt Wt Cars

    Pennies! Save those c-notes!
     
  5. jbloch

    jbloch Member

    Re: Overland Models Frisco Lt Wt Cars

    I've only seen comments in passing on the Model Railroader forum. Guess these are a little nicer than Con-Cor or IHC, eh? Seriously, though, I can afford to splurge a little from time-to-time, but who in the world can afford these? I though $35-40 for the Walther's heavyweights was a bit much!!

    Jim
     
  6. w3hodoug

    w3hodoug 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    What should have been

    Frisco had no P-S lightweight dome cars - nor any heavyweights for that matter - but the scenery deserved seeing from a dome.

    My railroad has dome cars since I'm the CEO.

    Doug
     

    Attached Files:

  7. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Walthers has announced the production of an HO model of a Pullman-Standard streamlined 10-5 sleeper in the Frisco's "Meteor" paint scheme but lettered for the Pennsylvania Rail Road and Pullman.

    Here's the URL:

    http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6753

    What is the historical background for this car? How many of them were there? Can they be identified by number? The picture on page 40-41 of Marre/Sommers Frisco in Color shows a train with a passenger car painted in Tuscan Red with Imitation Gold striping. The caption says on page 41 "In its days of glory, the TEXAS SPECIAL boasted of through sleeping car service between it main Texas points and New York, Chicago and Washington (via PRR, Wabash, and B&O respectively) in addition to the St. Louis sleepers." It doesn't say anything about the "Meteor". In what time frame were these cars made? Can anyone verify that these cars showed up in Frisco passenger train consists? How accurate is the model compared to the prototype?
     
  8. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Cascade Ravine was shadow-striped for use on the Meteor, and it was lettered "Pennsylvania". It carried small Pullman letterboards at each end. The picture depicting the announced model should have silver trucks.

    The Cascade Range was shadow-striped and carried the Neon-Style Texas Special Livery.

    Both cars had full-width diaphrams, and they were repainted circa 1948.

    Arthur Dubin's "More Classic Trains" has the pictures.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
  9. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    I'm sorry, but I don't have access to More Classic Trains. If both the "Cascade Ravine" and "Cascade Range" were painted in the shadow stripe scheme that leads me to believe that they were heavyweights painted to make up the third trainset of The Texas Special when it was discovered that the turnaround time in San Antonio was too short. It appears that the Walthers car is consistant with the lightweight streamlined cars bought to equip The Texas Special and the Meteor in 1947. I wonder if they got the unusual profile of the fluting that Pullman-Standard used right.
     
  10. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    They were smooth-sided, lightweight cars built by Pullman during 1940. The Pennsy painted cars to match other roads' named trains as well....The Texas Eagle, The California Zephyr, City of Denver.


    http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1948%20Sep%2004.wd.pdf
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2008
  11. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    More of that great W K W "research" department! The model is fluted--the prototype was a smooth side!

    Tom
     
  12. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    On the Texas Special, the PRR "Cascade" cars were LW smooth side and shadow line painted 10-5's and they were the Pennsy's share of the NY-San Antionio sleeper line. Frisco or Katy 14-4's were the other two cars to protect the service. The HW 12-1's were on the St. Louis-San Antiono sleeper line. There was no "Heavyweight" Texas Special trainset per se. The shadow lined red and silver HW cars and the few extra Frisco and Katy lightweights were thouroughly mixed with the two initial trainsets. After about two days there were probably never two Texas Special consists alike.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008
  13. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Tom,

    I keep re-examining the model photo, and I can't tell from the image if it is a smooth sided car with shadow-stripes or if it has fluted sides. I am going to drop WKW a line to find out for certain, and chatise them if they have produced a fluted car. The description of the model states the that car will have the appropriate sides.

    -keb-

     
  14. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Tom, you're probably right that there never was a train made up exclusively of red and silver painted heavyweight cars. To continue the quote on page 41 of Marre/Sommers Frisco in Color: "But MKT did not have sufficient time to turn the train at San Antonio on many occasions, and so the original pair of Pullman-Standard lightweight trains (one MKT, one SL-SF) shortly had to be supplemented by repainted heavyweight equipment for a third trainset. In 1955, a re-order of lightweight coaches and one extra coach-buffet-lounge eased the shortage, but the were never enough head-end lightweights and observations to go around."

    A photo on page 150 of Collias/George's Katy Power shows the MKT E7 pair being replaced with a Pacific to power The Texas Special at Waco, Texas. The caption gives more detail: "This original schedule had No. 2 departing San Antonio at 3:30 P.M., resulting in a noon arrival in St. Louis, thereby severing the good connections to the east and the loss of patrons to the competing MP/T&P Texas Eagle, scheduled into St. Louis some three hours earlier the same day. Refurbished and repainted heavyweight equipment was quickly put into service to provide a third trainset that by September 1948 allowed a earlier noon departure from San Antonio and early morning arrival in St. Louis. Steam power remained at the head end of the combined light and heavy weight consists until 1950."
     
  15. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Just to give full details for the PRR cars that were shadowlined to match the Meteor and the Texas Special:

    Two PRR 10-5 sleepers, "Cascade Meadow" and "Cascade Range" were painted to match The Texas Special from May 1948 until sometime in 1950. In 1950, the two cars were replaced with 10-6 sleepers "Swatara Rapids" and "Tioga Rapids". The two Rapids series cars were in standard PRR colors until May 1953 when they were finally shadowlined. In November 1956, the cars were repainted red and imitation aluminum without the shadowlining. Both cars were repainted to standard PRR colors in 1960 (the service on the Texas Special was discontinued in 1958).

    There were also two 10-5 cars, "Cascade Brim" and "Cascade Ravine" painted to match the Meteor from May 1948 to early 1950. Service on the Meter ended late in 1949.

    My source on this is an article by Larry Shankles in the December 1991-January 1992 All Aboard from the Museum ( http://condrenrails.com/Frisco/Frisco-Museum-All-Aboards/AA1991.12-92.1.v6.4.pdf ) I've seen the information on which cars were painted in shadowlining in some PRR books as well, but I haven't found that resource again since our move... I hope it isn't lost....

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  16. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Marre's summation of the how the RR's supplmented the Texas Special Equipment with heavyweights is extremely simplified. Each RR had some extra cars (coaches and sleepers) those cars, along with the red/silver heavyweights (MKT RPO 229, diner 434, lounge 496, a couple of HW Pullmans and a dozen or so baggage and chair cars plus the Frisco's coach-buffet-lounge 1603) made a "pool" of cars to draw from. Some of the regularly scheduled car routes only needed two cars to protect, some needed four, most three. PRR and B&O sleepers cars were also in the mix. The Katy's and Frisco's diner routes were on each road's home rails. So there wasn't just a "Katy trainset" or a "Frisco trainset" or a "heavyweight trainset." M-K-T did indeed use steam for the Waco-San Antionio leg of the route until the next batch of diesels arrived (M-K-T PA's in 1949 and Frisco and M-K-T E-8's in 1950).

    Tom
     
  17. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Karl--I just assumed the Walthers car was fluted, it's really is hard to tell from the image. If it is shadow striped, it would be a close match for the PRR Meteor car. Silver trucks would really make it pop! And if it IS shadow striped, that would save modelers a whole lot of trouble. It could also be re-lettered with Texas Special decals for that service. You HO guys are so-o-o lucky...:)

    Tom
     
  18. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Pensive--In the Larry Thomas articles in "Passenger Train Journal" (Two parts--November & December 1984), he says the through Pullman service on the "Meteor" from New York to Tulsa was started in 1946, before the train was streamlined and discontinued in the mid 1950's.
    According to the article, three PRR "Cascade" series cars were painted in the red/silver/shadow line scheme. Also in 1950 there were two other cars "Swatara Rapids" and "Tioga Rapids" (both 10-6's) painted in similar schemes. Some of these cars (not sure which??--See details in Paul B's post below) were lettered for the Texas Special. The "Rapids" series cars (above) were assigned to the Texas Special in 1956. All these PRR cars were repainted back to the PRR Tuscan Red at some point in time.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2008
  19. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    Has anybody noticed that the trucks in the Walthers listing are now silver?
     
  20. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Re: Walthers Pennsylvania "Meteor" Sleeper

    I should have looked a little more closely at the links that were already posted to this list for the PRR source of information. The link Karl posted ( http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1948 Sep 04.wd.pdf ) notes all 4 of the Cascade Series cars I noted previously.

    Also, The 1949 timeline indicates the date when the cars were removed from the Meteor ( http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1949 Sep 04.wd.pdf ).

    One other note, there is a photo of "Cascade Meadow" on page 13 of Robert Liljestrand and David Sweetland's book "Passenger Equipment of the PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD, Volume 2: Sleepers".

    As Karl noted, pictures of "Cascade Ravine" and "Cascade Range" appear on pages 160,161, and page 263 of "More Classic Trains" (the picture on page 263 is the same picture of "Cascade Range that appears earlier in the book).

    I don't know if I've have ever seen a photograph of "Cascade Brim" or either of the "Rapids" series cars in Shadowline paint.

    Paul
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2008

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