Frisco Run-Through Operations

I want to plug this post in to this thread. Interesting insight on the early days of the Santa Fe run throughs.

http://frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/why-didnt-the-frisco-buy-gp30s.14077/

 

I came across this picture on another site. The caption indicates it was taken in Arizona in 1968. Check out the Frisco auto racks at the end of the train. I think this is a picture of train QLA. If you zoom in, the front is mostly TOFC and general box cars, but the back has several auto racks and some box cars from eastern roads all together. That's how the ODS describe the makeup of the QLA at this time, hot traffic out of the southeast, with a block from St. Louis being added at Tulsa.

 

That photo is at Winona, AZ. ATSF/BNSF station "Darling". Looking west from the Townsend-Winona Road overpass. I live a few miles from there.

 

This thread has been dormant for a while, but I have a couple of things worth posting. A while back I put together a summary sheet in excel that attempts to merge all of the existing knowledge in this thread into one place. That project was put on the back burner during the house build, but I started working on again recently. I'm close to having it done and ready to present, but there is one last detail I'm trying to track down, which brings us to tonight's information dump.

I realized tonight that there's a piece of information I found last year that I forgot to share. This is a SCL company memo that discusses the train numbers assigned to the Frisco run throughs dated June 1970.



This is good information for the early days of the run throughs, but changes were made by the time the BN merger came along. With my modeling interests in 1980 (primarily), I try to find as much 1980 information as possible. I did find an SCL time table from 1980 that covers territory from Atlanta down to Jacksonville. With that document, I can confirm that 333 and 334 are still listed, but it doesn't give any information beyond that. The only ETT I've found so far that includes Birmingham and Hamlet is dated 1982. While this is after the merger, it does list trains in/out of East Thomas Yard as 333, 334 and 336. Based off this, and changes in the ODS's toward the end, I would infer that traffic to and from Hamlet was assigned to #335 and #336 in 1980. As always, I would like to find some way to confirm this, but haven't had any luck yet. If any information exists on this topic, I would love to hear it.

 

The next topic I want to discuss is really an extension of the previous post and the thought that got me going on this thread again. For clarity's sake, this is all written for the time frame of 1978 ish to the merger in 1980.

Before we dive in, here is a link to the ODS files that I will be referencing throughout this post. Frisco Operating Data Sheets

Over the past couple years of not only studying this topic, but the Operating Data Sheets (ODS) for the railroads as a whole, I have been puzzled by the fact that not all of the trains described as agreements between ATSF-SLSF-SCL and UP-SLSF-SCL actually run through to/from the SCL. Also, I've read that some traffic goes to Florida, and some goes to the Mid-Atlantic states via Hamlet, NC, but I've never understood how traffic was actually sent to/from the two destinations. So, I went back and carefully read all of the relevant ODS's again and finally figured it out. I decided the easiest way to present this topic is to make a diagram in MS paint breaking down the movement of each relevant train throughout the system.



I think the key to understanding these movements is that not only does everything funnel through Memphis, none of these trains actually run through Memphis. All of them are run through the hump yard and resorted based on final destination. What added to my confusion is that these reassembled trains retained their initial name. For example, traffic that came in on Santa Fe train CTB might be moved to the FSE, which starts out as a UP run through, and vice versa UP traffic could be moved to the CTB due to destination. The ODS for the CTB even lists both receiving from and delivering to the FSE.




I think the whole thing would be easier to understand if different train names/numbers were used between Memphis and Birmingham instead of retaining train names that no longer reflected the consist they moved with. Perhaps they could have used the SCL numbers.

Some other notes I'll throw out on this topic:

The CTB and FSE-2 (aka UPX) both terminate at Birmingham despite being labeled as run throughs and retaining their identification after re-blocking at Memphis.

The NWF doesn't actually run through from the SCL. It originates at Tennessee Yard in Memphis.

I hope this post was helpful for anyone that happened to fall down the rabbit hole on this subject.

 

Follow up for the previous post in case questions arise: Santa Fe run throughs QSF and 666, the coal trains and the various other minor run throughs didn't factor in to the topic at hand, so they were left off of the map to make it easier to read.

 

And now to the original reason I restarted this thread. Gabriel gave us a nice summary to open the thread, but there has been a lot of discussion since that was posted. I decided it would be worthwhile to make a summary sheet that was a snap shot of our current collection of knowledge on this subject. I'll post a screen shot of the most important part of the sheet, but I recommend opening the excel file for the full effect. There are several notes in the Santa Fe section with page number references to a book by John Carr that gave me several of the train identification numbers.

There's also a second sheet with a quick summary of the most common pooled power that came in on these trains.

This is by no means comprehensive, or final. There are still a few items with question marks that I have inquired about, but the information has been lost to time. Anything with a question mark is my best reasonable guess, but not confirmed.

Enjoy

Edit1: I reuploaded the excel file after adding a few more notes to it. 7/12/24
Edit2: Updated excel file with new UP info in the cell notes 1/13/25

 

Another random find in the archive tonight. This picture shows us a nice set of half and half power, with 2 Frisco U30Bs, and a SCL U36B and GP40. The angle of the photo gives us a nice long view of the contents of the train, which includes a long string of PFE reefers at the front. Consulting the scenery and track arrangement, this appears to be south bound on the south end of Amory, MS. The sun directly over head tells us it's near mid day. Unfortunately, that doesn't completely narrow down our choices because train FSE is due at 11:00 AM and CTB is due at 1:00 PM. My initial gut feeling was this is the FSE due to the block of reefers at the front and the run through power. After thinking about it further, I have changed my guess. If you look closer at the line of cars, there isn't any TOFC in the mix. Based off previous research, the FSE typically carries a lot of TOFC down to Florida, so I am changing my guess to the CTB.

What changed my mind at the end was this observation, which ties back to my previous posting here: look at the lack of TOFC in the mix. The FSE generally arrived as mix of TOFC, reefers and a few box cars. The CTB was close to being TOFC only by this point (it was designated TOFC only by 1980). However, after reblocking at Memphis as discussed previously, the TOFC has all vanished from this train.



http://frisco.org/mainline/wp-conte...Amory-Mississippi-in-August-1978-J.-Oates.jpg

 

I wanted to plug this video in over here from a different thread.

27:04 A 3 pack of Union Pacific U30C's and a lone Frisco U30B pool together on one of the hot run through trains. I have a hard time getting my bearings in these short video clips, but as Keith pointed out, this is the NWF headed to the UP. .

I was really happy to see this footage, not only because of my ongoing research obsession in this area, but I recently programmed a set of locomotives in this exact configuration for use on my layout.

59:23 In the background of this last shot, what I believe is a UP C30-7 leads a pair of Frisco SD45's on a parked run through train.

 

Thanks for getting me pointed in the correct direction. I've updated the post to reflect this information

 

A Frisco locomotive with Conrail locomotives in the same train! This I found VERY interesting! I hope any of you Frisco People could know more about this?

 

The Frisco traded the high-nosed U-boats back to GE during Sept 1978. GE then leased these units to the then recently (1977) formed Conrail. This train is not a run- through, but a Conrail train with a leased GE unit, nee Frisco.

 

I would like to add a slight tweak to Karl's post. The 8 High Hood model U25B's were traded to GE in September of 77, not 78. They were traded in for 8 B30-7's, which were later delivered in December of 77.

Here's a better picture of one of these units after being leased to CR. The Frisco wordmark was painted over, but the number was retained.

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1493135

 

yep, fat-fingered that one

 

One quick find for tonight. The latest that I had found pictures of SCL units west of the Mississippi (on Frisco rails at least) was 72 or 73. Tonight I happened across a nice picture of a couple SCL units parked at the fuel rack in Tulsa dated 1978. Not sure if these guys got sent west on the QLA, or if they're out paying back HP hours. Either way, it's a good find for modeling purposes.

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/362703/

 

Next subject I've found bits and pieces of the past few months: UP units on the Frisco, not on the NWF/FSE route. I've seen a couple mentions of UP units in NE Oklahoma elsewhere on the forum, so I've kept my eyes open and found a few pictures. We don't have any documentation to indicate dedicated run through traffic from the UP was destined for Tulsa and points south (the MKT got most of this traffic from what I can tell), so these are most likely paying back HP hours. As always, if anyone else has a better theory, I would love to hear it.

First up, the oldest of the bunch: A UP GP30 and a (I think) GP9B at the Frisco yard in OKC. No date on the slide, but it's somewhere 1970-72ish given the FM switchers included in the pictures. http://frisco.org/mainline/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Caboose-1233-date-and-location-unknown.jpg



Next up, a Frisco SD45 leads a UP U30C toward the DFW area. http://frisco.org/mainline/wp-conte...Denison-Texas-on-June-12-1979-Bill-Bryant.jpg



Finally, we have a UP C30-7 and SD40-2 setting in the fuel rack at Tulsa. https://www.railpictures.net/photo/254107/

 

I found a cool picture while scanning slides this weekend. A practically brand new Union Pacific SD40-2 3744 leads a train east out of Springfield at WS Jct. Note that the class lights are lit, probably due to being way off the normal schedule of both the FSE and FSE-2, as both were scheduled through over night.

 

Somewhere on the forum, I can't find it at this time, someone shared some ODS's from the Union Pacific for the Frisco run throughs. The files that were previously shared were from 1978. I came across a set from October 1979 that has some changes to how the trains were made up. The sheets for the NWF and KCX didn't change, so I am going to skip those in this post just to cut down on clutter.

Link to the entire 160 page book https://movingthefreight.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/up-freight-train-schedules-10-1-1979.pdf







Block F6 didn't appear in the 1978 edition of the block codes.

While the F7 block for Tulsa is still in the codes, it is no longer included on the sheet for the FSE, instead it now has the new F6 code as well. F7 (Tulsa) and F3 (KC Proper) blocks moved on another train that I haven't found in the book yet.