Frisco mid-1950s Diagrams #1 - EMD E-Units

Discussion in 'Diesel Diagrams' started by meteor910, Nov 10, 2009.

  1. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    SLSF 2000 - 2005, E7As (EA7)
    SLSF 2006 - 2022, E8As

    Ken
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    For some reason the original E7A (EA7) diagram did not upload in my first posting.

    I will rescan it.

    K
     
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  3. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Original E7A (EA7) sets, SLSF 2000-2005.

    This diagram is from 1949-1950.

    Sorry - Obviously I'm having some sort of problem with this diagram.

    Ken
     
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  4. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    3rd try!

    K
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. Iantha_Branch

    Iantha_Branch Member

    I see it has the unit #'s listed in pairs.

    Were they just coupled together or permanently set up in multiple unit (MU') sets via draw bars?
     
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  6. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    No, they were coupled together as normal, no drawbars.

    The Frisco, like many railroads in the early diesel days, considered a multiple set of units as one locomotive. Their intent was to operate the same set of units together all the time. When purchased the thinking was in a diesel unit equivalent to comparable steam locomotives.

    For example, the plan was to always run SLSF 2000 and SLSF 2003 together on the Texas Special, Nos 1 & 2, and run 2001-2004 and 2002-2005 together all the time on The Meteor, Nos 9 & 10. So, they showed them as paired units on the first diagram.

    It did not take long before they realized the folly of that, and all subsequent diagram sheets showed the various diesel units as individual locomotives.

    One of the main advantages of the diesel is that you can usually mix and match them to your heart's content, and they did.

    Ken
     
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  7. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    One last diagram. Whew, I am glad this is over!

    Attached is a diagram of E7As MKT 101 and 101A, later 101A & 101C, kindly provided to me by Ray George of the Katy Railroad Historical Society. Thanks, Ray!

    These are the two MKT E7As built for the Texas Special, virtual twins when delivered to SLSF 2000 & 2003. Note the MKT also shows the locomotive as a two-unit set.

    Ray advises that this diagram has been revised at least three times. To my eye, it is easy to see that the gear ratio and the top speed notations have been among those revisions. The conclusion is that MKT 101A and 101C were also re-geared to 57:20, 85 MPH, from 55:22, 100 MPH, at the same time the Frisco re-geared their E7As. This was at the time in 1950 when both the Frisco and the Katy received new E8As that were geared 57:20.

    E7As with 100 MPH gearing would be fine for the east coast corridor, or for the IC running down Illinois, but they were likely an obvious mis-match for the curves and hills of the Frisco's Eastern Division.

    The re-gearing made them a bit more gutsy when heading up the Texas Special, train No 1 and No 2 on its joint SLSF/MKT route.

    Ken
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    AWW Ken,

    You loved doing it! :D
     
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  9. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    At some point in time in their early history the Katy Texas Special E-7As were numbered 101 and 101-B.

    I am not sure where this picture came from.

    Magazine?

    Historical society newsletter, etc.?

    There are similar pictures in this setting.

    I think it's on display at Parsons, KS when it was new.

    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

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  10. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Wow!

    I recall them as 101 and 101A, 101A and 101B, and 101A and 101C.

    I guess the Katy liked to play musical chairs.

    Notice the MKT diagram just calls the set of them just 101.

    Ken
     
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  11. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Interesting to me is that the fuel, oil, water, and sand only constitute about 8% of the weight.

    I thought it would be much more.

    I was more used to aircraft with 200,000 pounds of fuel alone. :eek:
     
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  12. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Attached FYI are what I think is a unique set of Frisco locomotive diagrams.

    These are from the September, 1950 issue of the SLSF locomotive diagram book.

    These diagrams are, obviously, for the Frisco "famous horse", or "Redbird" for those who prefer that, E-units - the six modified E7As, SLSF 2000-2005, and the 17 new E8As, SLSF 2006-2022. We have certainly published diagrams of these units before.

    So, what is unusual about these diagrams?

    Take a look at the E8A sheet. Note it was drawn 9/22/1950, probably for this diagram book issue. This is the only E8A diagram I have seen showing SLSF 2022 to be wearing its original name Middleground.

    SLSF 2022, the last of the new E8As, entered service on the Frisco in July, 1950. On January 14, 1951, Middleground was T-boned by the MKT in Ft. Scott, Kansas, and was so severely damaged she had to be taken back to EMD for a rebuild. When the unit emerged from EMD later that year, it was renamed Champion.

    Admin note: This had long been the anecdotal story behind the Middleground/Champion name change however new evidence has surfaced as seen in Karl's post #17 below.

    http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index....1950s-diagrams-1-emd-e-units.2939/#post-71305]

    In December, 1951, the diagram for the E8As was updated, and 2022's name changed to Champion. Thus, the E8A diagram posted below, might very well be the only issue that reflects SLSF 2022's name as Middleground. It only ran with that name for a short six months.

    I wrote a short Roster Tale on this topic for the Frisco Museum's All Aboard publication, Vol 3, #4, Sept 1988. For reference, a copy of that article is also attached.

    Ken
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. wmrx

    wmrx MP Trainmaster

    Thanks for posting this information Ken.

    The mention of the MKT at Ft. Scott got my attention. I worked on this part of the old Katy for about two years after the UP takeover. The crossing, at that time, was protected by an automatic interlocking.

    Does anyone know when that upgrade was made?

    And, I wonder if this collision had some influence on making this change?
     
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  14. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    More info is available about this accident in Don Banwart's neat book Rails, Rivalry and Romance, published in 1982. See page 381.

    The SLSF/MKT crossing at that time in 1951 was protected by a joint interlocking tower, Griffith Tower. The article in the book notes each railroad was required to bring its trains to a stop to check clearance before crossing the intersection.

    Each railroad blamed the other naturally! The Frisco said the MKT train stopped too far from the crossing, the Katy said the Frisco train did not fully stop. Apparently, the Frisco was ultimately found to be most at fault.

    There is no mention of any signals or interlocking guarding the crossing at that time.

    Middleground was the trailing unit on Frisco train No 106. It was T-boned by a Katy F7 on the point of its freight train. Behind SLSF 2022 was a Frisco express box, an ex-Army troop sleeper still on its Allied Full Cushion trucks. It got beat up by the F7, too.

    Ken

    Admin note: This had long been the anecdotal story behind the Middleground/Champion name change however new evidence has surfaced as seen in Karl's post #17 below.

    http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index....1950s-diagrams-1-emd-e-units.2939/#post-71305
     
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  15. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    The crossing, known formerly as Scott Junction, was still dark during 1969, Eastern Division ETT 48.

    By 1971 System ETT No 1, an automatic interlocker had been placed.

    The MP and MKT crossed at Griffith.
     
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  16. wmrx

    wmrx MP Trainmaster

    Thanks for the heads-up on the book.

    A former co-worker of mine had a copy of this book that he would share during lunch break, but I never had a copy of my own. I could not remember the name of it until you mentioned it in this thread. I hope I can find a copy of this book one of these days.

    I take it that the crossing in question must have been protected by stop signs at the time of this collision. Not an ideal situation to say the least. Thanks, Karl, for looking up the info concerning the change to an automatic interlocking.

    Thanks to other posts on this forum, I have been able to determine where the MP tracks were in Ft. Scott. The old ROW at Griffith was still quite visible in 1992, but I never knew for sure where it crossed the Frisco.
     
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  17. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    There is a Facebook group, Ship it on the Frisco, which I frequent often.

    As a good repository for Frisco stuff, I find it lacking, and it tends toward towards posts which are non-Frisco, but from time to time, its members post things that raise an eyebrow.

    During April 16, 2018, Ron Wagoner posted this picture of a picture on Facebook. The image purports to be of the Frisco 2022 at EMD after its collision with a Katy freight at Ft. Scott on January 14, 1951.

    Ron who knew the background of 2022, asks, so what gives with the Champion moniker?

    The damage shown on the image is consistent the with collision at Ft Scott, and if the photograph is un-doctored, then it would seem that the Frisco re-lettered the unit before its Ft. Scott collision.

    If true, it means that the 2022 became Champion not long after September 22, 1950.

    63E648A6-C146-4D11-9DF3-F374F29531EE.jpeg
     
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  18. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Wow, that is a wrinkle, pardon the pun given the picture, that we were not aware of before now.

    Only someone close to the motive power department would be able to clarify when the renaming actually happened.

    We may be too late to get a definitive answer.

    Good catch, Karl!
     
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  19. gna

    gna Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I seem to recall reading that the Frisco could not use Man o' War as the name was trademark protected, so they used its nickname Big Red instead.

    Could the same be the case with Middleground?

    They had to change it?

    I am curious about this because I have a Proto 2000 E8A Middleground.

    Seems like an odd name.
     
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  20. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    No.

    Middleground, the 1950 Kentucky Derby and Belmont winner, was OK to use. I am guessing here, but my opinion as to why the Frisco decided to change 2022's horse name so early on in the its life was a combination of three factors .

    1) It was a very long name, and looked ungainly on the cab side under the side windows. I also had P2K SLSF 2022, and thought the name looked poor compared to the other names. So I changed it to Champion, but left it as it looked in 1950 - no multi-horn Leslie, no spark arrestors, etc. That unit sold quickly at our 2016 estate sale.

    2) Middleground was the current Kentucky Derby and Belmont winner in 1950, the same year 2022 was brand new. The other horses were not as current. Earlier horses with a historical background generally.

    3. Gene Autry was a big movie, radio, TV singing and acting cowboy star in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and was a former employee of the Frisco. I think they wanted to recognize him given his SLSF history and later fame, plus the name Champion looked and sounded much better on the E8A.

    Well, at least that is my guess. I even remember Gene Autry!

    K
     
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