Discussion in 'Diesel Diagrams' started by meteor910, Nov 10, 2009.
SLSF 2000 - 2005, E7's
SLSF 2006 - 2022, E8's
For some reason the original E7 diagram did not upload in my first posting. I'll rescan it.
Original E7 sets, SLSF 2000-2005. This diagram is from 1949-1950.
Ken (Sorry - Obviously I'm having some sort of problem with this diagram)
I see it has teh unit #'s listed in pares. Were they just coupled together or permanatly MU'd via draw bar?
No, they were coupled together as normal ..... no drawbars.
The Frisco, like many railroads in the early diesel days, planned to consider a multiple set of units as one locomotive, i.e, their intent was to operate the same set of units together all the time. For example, the plan was to always run SLSF 2000 and SLSF 2003 together on the Texas Special, No's 1 & 2, and run 2001-2004 and 2002-2005 together all the time on The Meteor, No's 9 & 10. So, they showed them as paired units on the first diagram.
It didn't take long before they realized the folly of that, and all subsequent diagram sheets showed the various diesel units as individual locomotives.
One of the main advantages of the diesel is that you can usually mix and match them to your heart's content ..... and they did.
One last diagram (whew!, I'm glad this is over!).
Attached is a diagram of E7's MKT 101 & 101A (later 101A & 101C) kindly provided to me by Ray George of the Katy Railroad Historical Society. Thanks, Ray!
These are the two MKT E7's built for the Texas Special, virtual twins when delivered to SLSF 2000 & 2003. Note the MKT also shows the locomotive as a two-unit set.
Ray advises that this diagram has been revised at least three times. To my eye, it is easy to see that the gear ratio and the top speed notations have been among those revisions. The conclusion is that MKT 101A & 101C were also re-geared to 57:20, 85 MPH (from 55:22, 100 MPH), at the same time the Frisco re-geared their E7's. This was at the time (1950) when both the Frisco and the Katy received new E8's that were geared 57:20.
E7's with 100 MPH gearing would be fine for the east coast corridor, or for the IC running down Illinois, but they were likely an obvious mis-match for the curves and hills of the Frisco's Eastern Division. The re-gearing made them a bit more gutsy when heading up the Texas Special, train #'s 1 & 2 on its joint SLSF/MKT route.
AWW - U loved doing it!
At some point in time in their early history the Katy Texas Special E-7's were numbered 101 and 101-B! I'm not sure where this picture came from?? Magazine? Historical society newsletter etc? There are similar pictures in this setting. I think it's on display at Parsons, KS when it was new.
Wow! I recall them as 101 & 101A, 101A & 101B, and 101A & 101C. I guess the Katy liked to play musical chairs.
Notice the MKT diagram just calls them (the set) 101.
Interesting to me is that the fuel, oil, water, and sand only constitute about 8% of the weight. I thought it would be much more.
(I was more used to 200,000 lbs of fuel alone)
Attached FYI are what I think is a unique set of Frisco locomotive diagrams. These are from the September, 1950 issue of the SLSF locomotive diagram book.
These diagrams are, obviously, for the Frisco "Racehorse" (or "Redbird" for those who prefer that) E-units - the six modified E7's, SLSF 2000-2005, and the 17 new E8's, SLSF 2006-2022. We have certainly published diagrams of these units before.
So, what is unusual about these diagrams?
Take a look at the E8 sheet - note it was drawn 9/22/50, probably for this diagram book issue. This is the only E8 diagram I have seen showing SLSF 2022 to be wearing its original name Middleground.
SLSF 2022, the last of the new E8's, entered service on the Frisco in July, 1950. On January 14, 1951, Middleground was T-boned by the MKT in Ft. Scott, Kansas, and was so severly damaged she had to be taken back to EMD for a rebuild. When the unit emerged from EMD later that year, it was renamed Champion.
[Admin note: This had long been the anecdotal story behind the Middleground/Champion name change however new evidence has surfaced; as seen in Karl's post #17 below http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index....1950s-diagrams-1-emd-e-units.2939/#post-71305]
In December, 1951, the diagram for the E8's was updated, and 2022's name changed to Champion. Thus, the E8 diagram posted below, might very well be the only issue that reflects SLSF 2022's name as Middleground. It only ran with that name for a short six months.
I wrote a short Roster Tale on this topic for the Frisco Museum's "All Aboard" publication, Vol 3, #4, Sept 1988. For reference, a copy of that article is also attached.
Thanks for posting this info, Ken. The mention of the MKT at Ft. Scott got my attention. I worked on this part of the old Katy for about two years after the UP takeover. The crossing, at that time, was protected by an automatic interlocking. Does anyone know when that upgrade was made? And, I wonder if this collision had some influence on making this change?
More info is available about this accident in Don Banwart's neat book "Rails, Rivalry and Romance", published in 1982. See page 381.
The SLSF/MKT crossing at that time (1951) was protected by a joint tower - Griffith Tower. The article in the book notes each railroad was required to bring its train to a stop to check clearance before crossing the intersection. Each railroad blamed the other (naturally!) - the Frisco said the MKT train stopped too far from the crossing, the Katy said the Frisco train didn't fully stop. Apparently, the Frisco was ultimately found to be most at fault.
There is no mention of any signals or interlocking guarding the crossing at that time.
Middleground was the trailing unit on Frisco train #106. It was T-boned by a Katy F7 on the point of its freight train. Behind 2022 was a Frisco express box - an ex-Army troop sleeper still on its Allied Full Cushion trucks. It got beat up by the F7, too.
Admin note: This had long been the anecdotal story behind the Middleground/Champion name change however new evidence has surfaced; as seen in Karl's post #17 below http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index....1950s-diagrams-1-emd-e-units.2939/#post-71305
The crossing, known formerly as Scott Junction, was still dark during 1969 (Eastern Div ETT 48). By 1971 (System ETT 1) an automatic interlocker had been placed.
The MP and MKT crossed at Griffith
Thanks for the heads-up on the book. A former co-worker of mine had a copy of this book that he would share during lunch break, but I never had a copy of my own. I couldn't remember the name of it until you mentioned it in this thread. I hope I can find a copy of this book one of these days.
I take it that the crossing in question must have been protected by stop signs at the time of this collision. Not an ideal situation to say the least. Thanks, Karl, for looking up the info concerning the change to an automatic interlocking.
Thanks to other posts on this forum, I have been able to determine where the MP tracks were in Ft. Scott. The old ROW at Griffith was still quite visible in 1992, but I never knew for sure where it crossed the Frisco.
There is a Facebook group, Ship it on the Frisco, which I frequent often. As a good repository for Frisco stuff, I find it lacking, and it tends toward towards posts which are non-Frisco, but from time to time, its members post things that raise an eyebrow.
During April 16, 2018, Ron Wagoner posted this picture of a picture on Facebook. The image purports to be of the Frisco 2022 at EMD after its collision with a Katy freight at Ft Scott on January 14, 1951. Ron who knew the background of 2022, asks, so what gives with the Champion moniker. The damage shown on the image is consistent the with collision at Ft Scott, and if the photo is un-doctored, then it would seem that the Frisco re-lettered the unit before its Ft Scott collision. If true, it means that the 2022 became Champion not long after Sept 22, 1950.
Wow, that’s a wrinkle (pardon the pun given the picture) that we were not aware of before now. Only someone close to the motive power department would be able to clarify when the renaming actually happened. We may be too late to get a definitive answer. Good catch, Karl!
I seem to recall reading that the Frisco couldn't use Man o' War as the name was trademark protected, so they used Big Red instead; could the same be the case with Middleground? They had to change it?
I'm curious about this because I have a Proto 2000 E8 Middleground. Seemed like an odd name.
No, Middleground (the 1950 Ky Derby and Belmont winner) was OK to use. I'm guessing here, but my opinion as to why the Frisco decided to change 2022's horse name so early on in the 2022's life was a combination of three factors -
1. It was a very long name, and looked ungainly on the cab side under the side windows. I also had P2K SLSF 2022, and thought the name looked poor compared to the other names. So I changed it to Champion, but left it as it looked in 1950 - no multi-horn Leslie, no spark arrestors, etc. That unit sold quickly at our 2016 estate sale.
2. Middleground was the current Ky Derby and Belmont winner in 1950, the same year 2022 was brand new. The other horses were not as current, i.e., earlier horses with a historical background generally.
3. Gene Autry was a big movie, radio and TV singing and acting cowboy star in the late 1940's/early 1950's, and was a former employee of the Frisco's. I think they wanted to recognize him given his SLSF history and later fame, plus the name Champion looked and sounded much better on the E8.
Well, at least that's my guess! I even remember Gene Autry!
Separate names with a comma.