F3 Detail Questions

Discussion in 'F3' started by myopiceagle, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. myopiceagle

    myopiceagle Member

    I have a few F3 detail questions I'd like some help with please.

    1. What year did SLSF begin applying the 'austerity' scheme to the F3's?

    2. FR208 of Mike Condren's Frisco Locomotive Photo's shows F3 #2008 with a light installed in the door on the nose of the cab. From most pictures I have seen, this is not common on Frisco's F3's and almost certainly must have been installed later in it's service life. When and why would such a change have been effected on #2008? Was this the result of a repair after a wreck?

    3. Are there any other F3's with the light in the nose door?
  2. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    1. As I recall, the black/yellow "austerity" paint scheme started to show up on F3, F7, FP7, F9, FA & FB units in the very early 1960's. I don't have an exact date when the first showed up - but it was certainly a "black day" (Ha!). Though it likely saved some money, it was not very attractive on A-units IMO. The re-paints occurred during major shoppings. Wreck repair could certainly be another reason.

    2. I'm not sure why some units got the new nose door with the headlight vs. others that never received it. It was an easy upgrade - put on a new door with the headlight built in, and wire it up. During this period, the Frisco was concerned about the number of grade crossing events they were experiencing, and perhaps the addition of a number of units with two headlight mounts was an attempt to obtain more visibility. One of the two light mounts usually carried a Pyle or Mars dual light, usually the lower one.

    3. I took a quick pass through my F3 pics and found the following Frisco F3's with a door mounted second headlight assembly: SLSF 5004, 5008, 5012, 5014. The two F3's rebuilt into F9's, SLSF 5005 and 5007, also carried the second headlight in the nose door.

  3. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    1964 might be a good guess on the "cigar band" austerity scheme. It's mentioned somewhere in the Marre Diesel Power book. Ken you probably have the Arthur Johnson photo of 5203 just outside the paint shop with some of the masking still on it. That's an early application of that scheme. Check the date of that photo (I can't locate my copy of FDP or that photo).

  4. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Well, IF the cost reduction "simplified" paint concept for the F's was concurrent with the simplification of the GP7 et al black & yellow schemes, then it could even date to at least April of '61.

    Wasn't there a paint phase date chart somewhere in one of the FMIG newletters?

  5. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I have looked through my stack of A Johnson and R Carlson Frisco photos. Carlson had one of SLSF 5009 carrying a nose door light in 1960, wearing the original b/y paint scheme.

  6. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom makes a good point. Probably a higher percentage of the repowered Alco FA1's got the addition of a headlight in the nose door than did the F3's. That is because the Alcos received a major shopping at EMD in 1955-1957 to get their EMD 567 repowering, and likely at the same time, got the nose door headlight treatment. Later, many of them also got the austerity scheme.

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2011
  7. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    I've just been looking at Marre's "Frisco Diesel Power," and I can't seem to find anything about the "cigar band" paint scheme dates. There is a reference to the Mandarin and white scheme having begun in 1965. Also there doesn't seem to be rhyme or reason as to when (Or which) FA's, F-3's and F-7's got Mars lights. Application of Mars lights and repowerings of the FA's (& FB's) don't seem to be connected either. I guess if you were modeling a particular unit, you's need to refer to phoptographs.

  8. gstout

    gstout Member Frisco.org Supporter

    For some reason, 1962 sounds about right for the application of the "austerity" livery. I will try to verify this if possible.

  9. Friscotony

    Friscotony Member

    Without double checking, I recall that a couple of unit had been in accidents and that when they were rebuilt, they had door lights installed. I know 5009 was one of them. Not too sure just when this occured.
  10. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Looking through the resources that are available to me, I made a study recerntly of which F units had double headlights at some time in their service life. F3A's that had them were 5008, 5009, 5012 (64), and 5017. Numbers 5005 and 5007 had them, but I assume these were added when they were rebuilt into F9A's in 1954.

    I agree with Tom that the austerity paint scheme started about 1964 as I have not seen any dated photographs of the scheme before then.

  11. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    From the FMIG Newsletters wayback machine (read: FMIG Index):

    NL #41 has a photo of 5002 at Lindenwood in the early 1950s, and #5013 in a NY Air Brake Co. advertisement from March, 1955.

    In that same issue from the reprint of the March, 19555 "Railway Locomotives & Cars" article, #5005 is shown being repaired at the Springfield Diesel Shop.

    While not a prototype, NL #21 (Summer 1979) has a J. McCullough article on modeling F3A #5002. I think there's also a photo of Doug Hughes' F3A #62 in NL #16, Ted Johnson's F3A in NL #43, and Rick McClellan's F3B #5109 in FMIG Lines NL #106.

    Those are the only photos that I'm finding in the index; I've not taken a look at these and probably won't be able to do so today.

    As always, please let me know if anyone notices errorts, etc. in the index so that I can update it.

    Best Regards,
  12. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    Ken, I think the Mars light in the door was due to the fact that it was added by the Frisco becuase that was not the typical installation from EMD; I refer you to the Frisco E7A and E8As, all had the mars light on top and the headlight in the door.
  13. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Yep - it was easy to buy a new front nose door from EMD that had the light hole and mounting platform, etc in it, then add a Pyle or Mars as desired. An easy upgrade.

  14. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Andre, I realize that I really didn't address your question in my post citing F3 references in the FMIG Newsletters.

    There does not appear to be a first-generation paint phase chart; I know there is one for the GP-7s that Mike Condren included.

    His website (http://condrenrails.com/Frisco/Frisco_PaintShop_Road_Freight_Units.htm) does have a photo of FR-F2a, which shows 5023 in the "cigar band" on 11-3-1964 in Fayetteville. This seems to jive with what others have cited.

    Furthermore, Mike's "Paint Shop" article on the E-unit paint scheme describes FR-P5, the "cigar band" scheme for the redbirds. He notes that "This scheme was an attempt at uniformity in cab-unit paint schemes as it was contemporary with a similar scheme, except for colors, which was being applied to the EMD and ALCO road freight units," and further cites the era used as 1965-1967.

    Accordingly, I think we can safely say that this scheme debuted on the covered wagons in late '64.

    Best Regards,

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