Besides the demonstrators from GM and GE that were obviously successful and led to purchases by the Frisco, what other demonstrators would have run Frisco rails but were passed over? Are there any pictures from such occasions? Stories? Recollections of seeing odd power in Frisco trains? I recall in some research I did on the KCS in the 50's and 60's there were several demonstrators (a picture of an Alco PA comes to mind) that ran on KCS rails and would like to know of any instances where this happened on the Frisco too. Thanks.
The Frisco did do an evaluation of the EMC FT 103 ABBA set. There is a pic of the locomotive at Newburg that was in one of the FMIG newsletters. The Frisco also did do an evaluation of the EMD GP20 demonstrators, but I don't know of a picture. I don't know if they ever evaluated the EMD GP30. They were pretty locked in to the GE U25b. Given all the problems they had with their FA/FB/RS-2 units, I doubt the Frisco ever looked at anything Alco from the RS-3 on. I don't know if they ever seriously looked at the PA1 either. Ken
The EMD GP35/DD35/DD35/GP35 demonstrator made an appearance on the KC Sub. It was an image of things to come.
In more ways than one - locomotive and paint scheme! Wouldn't a GP35/DD35/DD35/GP35 consist have looked good climbing Dixon Hill? K
Here's a picture of the GP35/DD35 demonstrators. When you see these, a full understanding of the final Frisco locomotive color scheme comes to light. Chevy Engine Red over White over Chevy Engine Red.
Well it's really too bad they weren't black and yellow! All these years later, white locomotives are STILL a bad idea! Think KCS. Tom
The Frisco improved the EMD GP35/DD35 demo paint scheme by painting the trucks and tank black when they adopted it IMHO. But, like Tom, I remain a black & yellow fan! Ken
Not to me - I like the looks of the silver trucks - even when they are dirty. Silver trucks and black tank would look good!
The reason the Frisco adopted this paint scheme was better grade crossing visibility. I read a statistic somewhere that while running these demonstrators no grade crossing accidents occured so a light bulb went off and thats how we got the orange and white.
Right after Christmas 1961 on the Frisco in Farmers Branch, Texas, "Santa Claus" brought me a freight train in 1:1 scale. It was a northbound headed up by a trio of brand new GE U25B demos! I paced it all the way to Carrollton on my bike. Speed restrictions on the line to and through Carrollton enabled me to keep pace. Colorado Fuel & Iron´s Colorado & Wyoming also had 2nd generation EMDs in the o/w scheme. Alco sent a set of PAs to Canada which tested on the CNR. They were later sold to the Katy. Wonder if the Frisco took a look? Did PAs operate on the Texas Special? Seems like all I see are photos with EMDs. Frisco did a pretty good job of keeping the o/w´s clean. The SD45s that delivered solid coal trains to the ATSF East Dallas Yard for the L&A (KCS) to deliver to Lone Star Steel via the Texas & Northern always looked good. The white KCS power, F units or GP30s were always dirty and rusty. Joe Toth
The Frisco ran some FA1/FB1 sets but never any PAs. In general, the Frisco was proud of their equipment and tried to maintain a clean appearance, however, there are lots of diesel pictures that would tell another story.
The Frisco might well have considered Alco PA's at the time they decided to add the second batch of passenger units, 1949-50, which wound up being the 17 new "Racehorse" E8's. Three things likely worked against the thought of adding PA's to the fleet ..... the Frisco liked their six E7's, the E8's were readily available and EMD was hot to sell them, and the first Alco 244 series engine reliability and maintenance problems in Frisco's FA/FB's and RS2's were likely starting to show up. The PA was also powered by a 244, albeit a more powerful version than what the FA/FB's and RS2's carried. Too bad - a Frisco Racehorse Alco PA would have been pretty good looking. I also would liked to have seen the earlier Alco DL series of passenger locomotives in a Frisco livery, say in the "Meteor" scheme. Now that would be something! Ken
MKT PA's did make it to St Louis over Frisco lines , just as Frisco E8's made it all the way to San Angelo over Katy lines. The Frisco was not overwelmed with joy when the Katy ran the PA"s to St Louis as they had a reputation of barely making it and often in need of some maintence work. The PA's were more powerful then the E units and were able to start heavier trains and do it quicker on hilly terrain. In modelrailroading I have mixed EMD E units and Alco PA's on my Texas Special however I did run the Frisco E8 ahead of the MKT PA. I have several demo paint scheme engines that I add in to make the 4% grade on the TWMRC. mktjames
The EMD E8 actually had more rated HP than did the Alco PA1. The E8 put out 2250HP from two V-12 567B's, which were Roots blown two-cycle engines. The Alco PA-1 had one 244 V-16 at 2000HP, a four-cycle turbocharged engine. The PA-1 244 would generally out-torque the E8 567's, so would indeed accelerate slightly faster. There may have been some electrical differences in favor of the Alco as well - I'd have to look that up. I'm not sure which one was faster at the top end - depended on the gearing among other things. They both would fly on level track. Ken
Ah horsepower racing E5, E6, E7 had 2000 hp. In Aug 1949 the E8 had 2250 horsepower. In April of 1950 the Alco was upgraded to 2250 horsepower. The E9 then got 2400 and in 1953 the Alco got 2400 also. The alco PA had three different gear ratio's depending if it was mountain ,flatland or combo for usage in freight and passenger service. Several other Missouri railroads had PA's with the duel usage gearing. mktjames
I have found two photos of PAs on the Texas Special in the excellent new TRRA Texas Special publication #69. One is on page 115 at San Antonio and the other on page 121 is shown at Muskogee. I assume photos of them operating on the Frisco leg of the run are around but haven´t been discovered yet? I haven´t seen any, at any rate. With less than 100 copies of the Texas Special publication left as of December 2010, I took the liberty and ordered a second copy. One is for "working" and the other is for the library. There have been countless books and publications covering passenger trains from many authors and publishers alike, but the TRRA has indeed outdone themselves on this one! It is a stand alone in itself but also compliments the coverage of the Texas Special featured in other books that have been published with some Texas Special content. Wonder how Lionel´s Texas Special F3 in O gauge and FA in HO sold during the years they were produced? I assume sales were higher in Frisco and Katy territory compared to other parts of the Nation. Wonder if there are any statictics to confirm this? At any rate, the Texas Special became known across the USA when it graced the pages of the catalogues. Not bad, considering it had to compete with the Santa Fe Warbonnets! Joe Toth
M-K-T engines including PA's, E-8's, FP-7's (And E-7's of course) occasionally ran on the Texas Special over Frisco tracks. Conversely Frisco engines ran south on the Katy. They "traded" mileage. Once in a great while, Katy and Frisco diesels could be found in the same lash-up. Tom
Here is a picture link to a Katy PA in St Louis outside Union Station in Texas Special paint scheme. www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=318375 mktjames
Whenever you saw a single Katy engine in a photograph at the St. Louis Union Station, it was probably the engine for the Katy Flyer laying over. The Katy Flyer arrived in the morning and didn't leave until around midnight. The Texas Special engines (Katy and/or Frisco) were serviced at Lindenwood. The PA in the photo was in the "standard" M-K-T diesel paint scheme. Athough similar, only the original (Frisco and Katy) E-7's with stainless steel fluting were specifically marked with Texas Special lettering. Tom
Although this thread is about demonstrators, and the Katy Flyer was the mail train by the time of the photograph in 1956, the first four Alco's 151 A&C and 152 A&C for the Katy were shadow painted new from Alco in May of 1949 to match the Texas Special consist and be used in it. The paint scheme would last until 1951 and the shadow paint was painted straight silver and the pilot painted straight red instead of maroon with yellow stripes. A picture of the engine 152A in 1949 in color with the shadow paint is in Steve Goen's book [Miss Katy in the Lone Star State] page # 35. mktjames
