Clinton sub passenger trains

Discussion in 'General' started by Frisco2008, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. mark

    mark Member

    Tom,

    Great photos. Thank you for posting.

    Please see the attached link to a post of Clinton Sub Industry Schematics for Clinton, MO. http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index....ivision-clinton-sub-industry-schematics.9899/

    The first photo is looking to the north northeast (railroad north). The train has backed down the depot spur to the station. This is the northbound train Number 20 (even number train symbols ran north or east and odd numbers ran south or west).

    Coming north from Springfield, it had passed the Frisco's Clinton Yard, crossed the Missouri Kansas and Texas (MKT or "Katy") at North Clinton interlocking tower (later protected by a gate across the Frisco main), crossed over the depot spur track turnout, stopped, unlocked, then opened the turnout and backed down to the station.

    The E-8 SLSF 2012, Flying Ebony, is on the depot track with its rear truck on East Lincoln Street. This track ended next to the depot on the east side, just north of East Green Street. I suspect that after dropping its train, the engine is doing the station work getting ready to pick up and add the two baggage express (chicken) cars to forward them to Kansas City.

    The two baggage cars on the left are sitting on the Armour and Company (north end), Clinton Ice and Cold Storage Company (south end) industry spur track. The next track over is the Clinton team track. This track ended also just to the north of East Green Street on the west side of the depot.

    To the left of the engine just below the horizontal sign, immediately right of its signpost, is the Katy's west approach signal (east bound traffic) for the Frisco/Katy diamond crossing. The grade crossing signals to the right rear of the engine are on the Katy main line tracks.

    The second photo shows the engine further down the same track on the train next to the depot. This was the former Kansas City, Osceola & Springfield (KCO&S) station and dated from at least 1891. The depot address was 113 East Green Street.

    The Katy's main line between St. Louis and Parsons, KS is just beyond the Frisco's track. This track can been seen to the left of and in line with the locomotive coupler shroud. The Katy's telegraph pole line that shows above the train is located between the Frisco and Katy tracks.

    Unfortunately the Frisco tracks and depot are gone. The former depot site is now a parking lot for the Clinton Public Library.

    The former Katy, now Missouri and North Arkansas (MNA), tracks are still in place as a branch line from Nevada, MO to a point just south of the former Frisco/MKT crossing. From that point east to St. Charles, MO (St. Louis metro) the right of way is now the historic Katy Trail.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2017
  2. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Fascinating photos AND operations information, folks. Between the track charts, pictures adn notes, Clinton by itself would make for an outstanding layout.

    If someone tackles the job, let us know (and write up a "Pike Sized Trains" article for submission!).

    Best Regards,
     
  3. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Totally by chance, I just happened across a very poor copy of a photo from the May, 1952 issue of Trains & Travel, page 41. Per the caption, it shows northbound Frisco train #20 crossing a bridge near Dodson, Mo. in 1949. Subbing for the light 4-6-2 normally used on this train is SLSF 1621, one of the Frisco's "Russian" decapods. It's a Don Smith photo, but the copy is so poor all I can really see are the bridge girders and the coonskin under the headlight bracket.

    SLSF 1621 now resides here in StL at the NMOT after a career with Eagle Pitcher following her SLSF days.

    I was doing some clean-up of my shelves, and just happened to open this notebook to see what was in it. The page I turned to had this pic on it. Must be the Frisco Gods at work - they knew we were having a discussion of Trains 20 & 21!

    Ken
     
  4. mark

    mark Member

    Chris,

    I agree with you Clinton would make a great Layout Design Element (LED) for a small railroad.

    From an operations standpoint don't forget that the Frisco had trackage rights on the Katy in Clinton to serve a few industries on the south end of town. This dates back to the Kansas City, Clinton and Springfield (KCCS) days. The KCCS railroad was abandoned in the early 1930s.

    Katy time tables into the 1970s included a Special Instruction that stated: "North Clinton-Clinton: SL-SF trains and engines may use MKT main track between wye tracks North Clinton and KCCS connection Clinton, upon receipt of train order authority to occupy main track." Interesting they were still referencing the KCCS railroad considering it had been abandoned over 40 years ago!

    I think this is a cool twist one could incorporate into their operations, including the paperwork, and at the same time give a little history. The Frisco's KCCS industries were on the west side of and parallel to the Katy main, south of 210 block of West Ohio Street. The connection was further south near the 400 block of West Rogers Street. This is not far from the old South Clinton interlocking tower and former KCCS crossing.

    On the way down the Katy you not only passed the Frisco's depot spur and station, but also the Katy's depot at 410 South Washington Street. The MKT depot has been saved, but relocated northeast to 200 South Main Street for use by the Chamber of Commerce.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2009
  5. mark

    mark Member

    Gentleman,

    By the way the concrete South Clinton interlocking tower still stands.

    It has been moved a couple of blocks to the west of its original location at the MKT/KCCS junction diamond. It is in a back yard on the south side, visible from the street, in the 500 block of West Rogers Street. It is very similar in construction to the concrete North Clinton interlocking tower. There are not many interlocking towers left in the country, much less one along the Frisco.

    Need help with research on the Clinton, Henry County, railroads? Check out the Henry County Library's web site. Mike Good is local librarian that has compiled a wealth of information to support your efforts. Please see http://tacnet.missouri.org/history/railroads/index.html. Near the top of the web page are links to photos of the Frisco's depot and the South Clinton interlocking tower.

    Dandy modeling and research opportunity.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark

    klrwhizkid: my photos of MKT tower in south Clinton IMGP7854.JPG IMGP7855.JPG IMGP7856.JPG
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2017
  6. mark

    mark Member

    All,

    The idea of Clinton as a layout design element has me on a roll. Please be patient.

    I found my Frisco industry schematic for Clinton (unfortunately not dated). There are 28 rail served industries listed. At the two team tracks an additional 16 customers are listed.

    On the depot lead there are six rail served industries, including the 2 team tracks. Included in the 16 non-rail customers are 2 hatcheries (chickens). The balance of the industries are north of the interlocking (3), off the main south on the way out of town (1) or at or near the yard.

    At South Clinton, on the former KCCS trackage off the Katy, the railroad served 9 industries. These industries included 6 bulk oil dealers, a liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) dealer, an "open" (unoccupied) industry and a local utility company.

    There is a great deal of variety in industry, loads and car types. Operating practice variety includes both freight, passenger and later mixed trains, interchange with and trackage rights over the Katy. Couple this with interesting easy to model smaller structures and one could have a really cool layout with just a single town and a few staging tracks.

    Way cool stuff for a "small" town.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2009
  7. Brad Slone

    Brad Slone Member Frisco.org Supporter

    If you wanted to go a little larger, you could include the Katy all the way to Windsor and include the Rock Island as well.

    Brad
     
  8. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Please to ask, "What was the drawing card to Clinton? Why were there so many railroads there?"
    Inquiring minds want to know.
    Thanks
     
  9. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    My guess from looking at Google Maps Terrain is that Clinton was fairly flat and offered a good crossing of the Osage River in western Missouri. This encouraged the Katy to build their Sedalia-Fort Scott line through there. The KCFS&M (later SLSF) as well as the KCC&S built through there. Voila; A crossing point. Osage bottom land could have supported some farming.
     
  10. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    There is an error below. Osage River crossings were not at Clinton, though the MKT crossed a tributary of the Osage there. As we know from here, the Frisco (KCC&S) crossed at Osceola to the south. The Katy crossed at Schell City to the southwest.

    It still looks like it gave the MKT a bit of flatter terrain to cross for its NE-SW alignment. It appears the grain of the land presented Frisco with a bit more of a challenge.
     
  11. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    The lifeblood of any railroad in the late 1800's was COAL. Look at the route followed by any large regional railroad from that period and you will see they were looking for a route which passed close to a fuel supply as often as possible. Transportation of coal was a major expense for any railroad and anything you could do to lower that expense usually outweighed the disadvantage of adding distance between point A and point B. Once you had coal mines operating in an area then other freight business into and out of the area would follow.

    To quote from Coal Deposits of Missouri (1890/91) "Henry County may be classed as one of the large coal producing counties of the State. It contains over twenty coal mines, many of which are constantly in operation." Many of the mines listed are operated by companies which were closely associated with particular railroads, for example Keith and Perry (of Kansas City).
     
  12. mark

    mark Member

    Gentleman,

    Frisco fans of Clinton should check out the Katy Historical Society's calender for 2010. For the month of February the calender has a great picture of the interlocking tower at North Clinton.

    The photograph is looking north along the tracks from the Frisco's Clinton yard. Clearly visible from the yard is the rod linkage leading to a small pot semaphore signal. This signal protected against northward movements. Also visible in the distance is a two blade home signal protecting against southward movements.

    This is a really nice black and white shot from an angle I have not seen before (looking north). More great modeling information and detail fodder.

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks!

    Mark
     
  13. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Of course here's the most famous high line train of them all: (Arthur Johnson's July 5th, 1948 photo of) The President Truman Special at the Springfield depot. Harry was going to Bolivar to dedicate a statue of the South American hero Simon Bolivar. The radio announcers painstakingly pronounced it "See-mone' Bo'-lee-var," however Harry gave it the "Mizzoura" pronunciation: "SI'-min BOL'-uvur." And the crowd roared!
    I was there with my parents soaking it all in--Actually the trains more than the President. When it was time for the special to leave for Bolivar, the 4501 was uncoupled and two small engines were coupled in its place (Because of the Highline's light rail and bridges). The Presidential private car with its armour plate and bullet proof glass, probably made the bridges groan. In my nine year old mind the little engines looked like switch engines to me, but they were probably a couple of the Frisco's small 2-8-0's. They pulled the train past the west leg of the wye and backed up the west belt to the north side. All the while Harry waved to the crowd...A great day in a train loving kid's life.

    Tom

    slsf 4501 Truman Special 7-5-48 em.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2009
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  14. kenmc

    kenmc KenMc Frisco.org Supporter

    Seeing the photo of #20 at the Clinton station moved me to put together this model representation. I apologize for the fuzzy photos.

    The RPO-baggage car is number 219, and the single-windowed coach is #1068, twin to the coach at the Dixie Railroad Museum at Calera, Alabama.

    Enjoy.

    Ken McElreath

    SLSF Train 21.jpg SLSF 21 on bridge.jpg SLSF on bridge.jpg SLSF RPO-Bagg 21 on bridge.jpg
     
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  15. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Way to go Ken! Finally, a FRISCO "Pike-Size Passenger Train!"

    Tom
     
  16. kenmc

    kenmc KenMc Frisco.org Supporter

    Karl asked about the difference in depot dwell times between the southbound and northbound passenger trains. I believe the difference is attributable to the switching required.

    The "chicken" baggage car(s) were delivered to Clinton by the daily southbound local freight and set out for loading on the team track. They were then picked up by the northbound passenger train, which required perhaps five to ten minutes of extra time at Clinton, in addition to the crew change and service times for both northbound and southbound trains. This would account for the extra fifteen minutes in the northbound schedule.

    It would also make for very interesting operation and switching on a model layout of the Clinton area.

    Ken McElreath
     
  17. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Ken -
    Good to see your name (and modeling efforts) around these parts!

    Nice work on the consist and the individual cars. That gives me some motivation to get moving on on turtleback coach. It's nearly ready-just need to add the bottom-side details that I've cannibalized off of an old Uncle Pete Spectrum coach that was involved in an accident years ago.

    Best Regards,
     
  18. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    T'wasn't I.


     
  19. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    Originally Posted by kenmc [​IMG]
    Karl asked about the difference in depot dwell times between the southbound and northbound passenger trains.

    Ken McElreath



    The question was actually mine and Karl answered it, though kenmc, like a good team player, supplied a little bit more detail later in the thread. Thanks to you both!

    George "ah, it was for the chickens"
     
  20. trainsignguy

    trainsignguy Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I don't get on this website for two weeks and all kinds of neat stuff shows up about the Clinton Sub. Thanks everyone for sharing information and photos. I learn something new all the time on this site.

    After the many comments and suggestions received after posting my original plan I have been redesigning my N scale Clinton Sub layout for the past few months. Most of it is ready to go and I am going to begin building soon starting with the Dodson, Harrisonville, Blairstown and Harvey modules. Since it is relevant to this thread I have attached a pdf layout of the Clinton MO portion of the layout.

    While I don't have the space, the MKT line to the south could be extended to form a "T" shaped layout. This would allow running on the MKT to the south part of town to switch the old KCCS industries.

    As always I am open to comments, suggestions and criticism.

    Dale Rush
    Carthage, MO
     

    Attached Files:

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