Clinton sub passenger trains

Discussion in 'General' started by Frisco2008, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. Frisco2008

    Frisco2008 Member Supporter

    Trains 20/21? (others?)


    What equipment?


    Glenn in Tulsa
  2. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Supporter Supporter

    In the 1950's, those trains, were pulled by an E-7, E-8, FP-7 or a passenger GP-7. Consist was an RPO-baggage car and coach. Earlier, it was pulled by a small steam engine (Like a 4-6-0) and the same consist.

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2009
  3. Frisco2008

    Frisco2008 Member Supporter

    The perfect "Pike-sized" passenger train!

    Thanks for your reply

    Glenn in Tulsa
  4. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    During the diesel era trains, 20 & 21 were handled by E-units and FP-7's, No doubt, GP-7's handled these trains, but I have yet to see photographic evidence of this. The preponderance of photos show the FP-7's and E-units as power. At times, the E-units were pooled with the E's from the KC Sub. One of the E's off the KC-FS, 106, would go south on 21. The reverse was true and 20's E-unit would go south on 105.

    During the 40-s and early 50's these trains were handle by the Little Ten Hundreds, 182-class 4-4-0's, the 1100-class 4-6-0's, especially 1111, and the Bolsheviks. I have seen photos of both the 1630 and 1632 on these trains.

    Several of the Eastern Div. ETT's have been posted on this site, and they will have these train's schedules.

    Roger and Brad will have good information too
    more later
  5. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Supporter Supporter

    Yeah--I wonder why Kalmbach never has any FRISCO trains in their "Pike-Size" articles?? Will Rogers, Sunnyland, Black Gold, Firefly would all be good candidates!
  6. Frisco2008

    Frisco2008 Member Supporter

    Thanks Karl

    I guess I may be after an Intermountain FP-7 after all!

    Glenn in Tulsa
  7. A wide variety of passenger equipment was used on these trains over the years.

    To the information already posted, I will add that gas-electrics with mail/baggage trailers were also occasionally used in Clinton Sub passenger service. Joe Collias's Frisco Power includes at least one picture of Tr. 20/21 running with a gas-electric and a wooden trailer rebuilt from a former KCC&S mail & baggage car. I have seen "motor" service indicated in several employee timetables for this subdivision, although I don't have them at hand at the moment.

    All Aboard published an article about the last run of Tr. 20/21. It consisted of an E-unit, one head-end car, and one coach. (See p. 16 here.)

    Afterward, as a recent article in Trains magazine noted, the last remnant of passenger service on the Clinton Sub was a "mixed" service between KC and Clinton, in which the occasional rare passenger rode in the caboose while poultry from the Clinton hatcheries rode in specially-equipped baggage cars, all pulled by Baldwin switchers or other modest diesel power.

    For a while in the 1920s and early 1930s, there was an interesting arrangement whereby the Frisco ran passenger trains and local freights (or mixed trains?) on an every-other-day basis south of Clinton, alternating between the Clinton Sub and the remnants of the former KCC&S, which paralleled the Clinton Sub for long distances. This of course ended when the KCC&S remnants were abandoned ca. 1934.

    If you go back further than that, things get busier. For a brief period between 1898 and 1901, the Clinton Sub was the Frisco's mainline to Kansas City, in direct competition with the Fort Scott line then owned by the KC Fort Scott & Memphis. I have a reprint of an Official Guide from this era that shows two Frisco passenger trains per day running on the Springfield-Clinton-KC line, with the night train carrying through Pullmans to be forwarded to other points on the Frisco system. I presume the through service was rerouted through Fort Scott shortly after the 1901 merger that gave the Frisco control of the flatter and faster KCFS&M mainline, leaving only the service needed to handle local traffic.

    I'll try to dig up a bit more in a day or two when my work schedule slacks off a little.

    Bradley A. Scott
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2010
  8. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Supporter Supporter

    gp-7 highline local em.jpg Re: Clinton sub passenger trains--GP-7 on the Highline.

    Here's a GP-7 on the Highline Local! This is a postcard photo from my collection (By Arthur Johnson, I believe) and I think it came from the former Frisco Museum. It shows the Highline local with a passenger GP-7, an RPO-baggage car and one coach (The typical consist). I think this picture was taken from the Jefferson Avenue foot bridge. The train is heading West through the North Yards. For a certain period of time, so as not to have to back up (Unknown what years??), the Hi-line local left the Springfield depot heading East, then went up to the North side on the middle belt, then West through the Yards and out the Highline.

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2009
    Joe Lovett likes this.
  9. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    Re: Clinton sub passenger trains--GP-7 on the Highline.

    Outstanding! Thanks for showing that.

    I believe that originally 20/21 got to the Springfield depot via the West Belt. After the installation of CTC on the East Belt, 20/21 were operate via that route.

  10. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Supporter

    Look at the cars on the next track. Neat!

    That is an Arthur Johnson photo - I believe I have it from him somewhere.

    What is it - SLSF 571?

  11. Frisco2008

    Frisco2008 Member Supporter


    I just found my copy...8X10

    Caption reads: Photo by Arthur B. Johnson, Frisco GP-7 571 Leaving Springfield, MO with Train #20. October 28, 1951"

    Glenn in Tulsa
  12. WindsorSpring

    WindsorSpring Member

    The November 1952 Official Guide shows Train 21 left Kansas City at 07:40, arriving at Clinton at 10:30 and reaching at Springfield at 2:05 PM. Train 20 left Springfield at 10:35, arrived at Clinton at 2:06 PM and ended at Kansas City at 5:35 PM.

    21's Clinton layover was 15 minutes (arrive 10:30, leave 10:45) while 20's Clinton layover was 30 minutes (arrive 2:06 PM, leave 2:36 PM).
    What were they doing during the layover?
    Why was the layover longer for one direction than the other?

    The trains were both scheduled at Flemington at 12:24 PM.
  13. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Supporter

    Note the attached EMD builders shot (or Frisco delivery shot - I'm not sure which) of SLSF 571.

    How come no evidence of a steam generator on the short hood? Dr Marre in "FDP" notes this unit had a s/g upon building. Maybe they hadn't bolted on the top fittings yet?

    Another mystery! There is a s/g evident in the Johnson pic Tom posted, and in the others I have of SLSF 571.


    slsf571gp7 emd.jpg
    Joe Lovett likes this.
  14. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Supporter Supporter

    Thanks guys for filling in the data. I couldn't make out the engine number in my little photo.

  15. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    It takes time to load those chicks.

  16. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Supporter Supporter

    Re Layover at Clinton: I've seen some pictures of one of the Highline trains doing some kind of switching or turning at Clinton (With a "Racehorse" E-8), but I have no idea what was going on. I don't know what the track layout was there, but it seemed to be turning on a wye. They may have been swapping engines with the other train. Has anyone else seen those photos?

  17. pbender

    pbender Member Supporter

    Well, that more or less seals the passenger cars I need to be working on - A heavyweight RPO and a heavyweight coach....

    Now I just need to find suitable N-scale kitbashing candidates.

  18. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Supporter

    The depot was on a 3/4 mile-long spur. Number 21 entered the depot spur locomotive-first, and backed-out. Number 20 backed into the depot spur, and left town engine-first.

  19. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Supporter Supporter

    Karl--Here's a picture of one of those moves at Clinton. I never knew what the track layout was there, so someone else will have to add the details. This photo is from the internet, photographer and source unknown??


    Hi-Line Train Switching At Clinton.jpg
  20. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Supporter Supporter

    Karl--Here's a photo that I believe is a companion to the one just posted below. Train show photo, no data, photographer unknown.


    slsf 2012 clinton.jpg

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