Central Division - Mansfield Branch article and Track Chart

Discussion in 'Central Div Track Charts/Industry Schematics' started by mountaincreekar, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2020
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  2. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    Thanks!

    I had part 1, 2, but I somehow missed 3.

    I was surprised to see that many of my (poor) photos from that region were included in Part 3 of the history essay!

    Andre
     
  3. Nothing you do Andre is poor!

    I am still trying to find somethings out about the early and short lived Red Rock.

    I am working on a google earth pro view superimposing the old row s and what was at each mp.
    Mother Nature is amazing. Looking at google earth it is hard to see all what was mined,
    as well the former MV rows.

    Andre did you work with a railroad?
     
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  4. Your photos were great Andre. Charles, thanks for sharing those. Neat stuff.
     
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  5. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    mc:

    Pics:

    Thanks for the kind words about the photos. Some of those were shot using Koda-Color print film and processed at a cheap-o print processing place. (OSCO Drug Store and Walmart?) Others are transparencies (slides) that didn't reproduce well using the old scanner I had. All of them didn't survive the digitizing process very well. The Frisco GP15-2 transparencies were shot in a light rain with some really nasty stuff moving in, hence some of the odd lighting. However, time was running out for the Frisco and the South Line in particular, so I took my opportunities when I could.

    Red Rock:

    What is the general vicinity where "Red Rock" located? Does it show up on a timetable or something?

    Railroad:

    Yes, I railroaded part-time from the mid-80's until going full time in March 2006. I've worked for several lines in three different states, ending up at the A&M for the last decade or so. Wife and I ended up getting a decent railroad retirement from my railroading.

    Steve:

    Thanks to you, too. One thing is for sure, they're better than nothing!

    Andre
     
  6. Hi Andre,
    Red Rock was ~ at pre Burma. On same (prior to 1903) spur east off Frisco's main line

    john,Nov 5, 2015 discusses Burma, Red Rock and Midland in his post
    http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/bruma-arkansas-depot.7574/#post-57065

    Burma:
    Nov 5, 2015 post, john, said
    "Burma not on an 1898 Employee Time Table, but there was a small mine spur there
    (Red Rock Mine spur)". "At some point between 1898 and 1903 a depot was built,
    but it was gone before 1918".
    john, "Here is a segment of a Sebastian County, AR is a
    map which was published in 1903."
    john," Allowing for the time it took to produce maps in those days, this was probably drawn just
    prior to the start of construction on the Midland Valley Railroad". "There is no sign of the future
    town of Midland which will be in Section 19". (To the north) john," The Montreal Coal Company tracks
    in Section 18 are "Williams" on early timetables (mp 439.3)".
    john,"After the (1903 map) Midland Valley Railroad was built these mines were connected to it
    and this spur was unused although it remained in place for many more years
    (the rails were still in place in 1910 and the bridge - with no rails - in 1918)".

    Charles As I view it;
    the same 1903 Burma map shows a depot ~ at the start of the Burma spur
    just into Section 20 just east from Section 19. My other researches stated differences.
    At other times Burma was just a sign. At another times Burma had a platform.
    At other times they moved a box car around between different locations.
    It was modified to be a small depot.
    At the end of the Burma spur, eastward into Section 20, was ( ~ 1/4+ mile long spur
    eastward to the SE 1/4 of NE 1/4 of SW1/4 of Section 19 ) went to the Red Rock mine.

    Charles, As I view it, Burma is not shown on John's 1948 USGS topo.
    Red Rock was before the 1903 map and near at the same place as Red Rock
    Mine on the same spur.
    Burma mine, puts its ~ at the east & back end of Burma Spur
    (within the SW1/4 of NE1/4 of the SW1/4 of the SW1/4 of Section 20).
    At the end on that eastward spur it shows a building (or a structure)
    that is labeled as coal mine. That building (or a structure) is marked
    with a
    x within a square. (Houses, sheds and depots are marked with
    a solid black square).

    On the 1915 Mansfield Branch's track map it shows the Burma
    Spur as turning and that may be what was called the switch back
    &/or the spur's curve. The 1903 map shows the Burma Spur as a straight line.
    Both may be correct since the spurs were continuing to be changed to get
    them to where the mining was at various times.


    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  7. Mansfield Burma Area attachments refer to article.


    ADMIN NOTE: Permission was not granted to remove content from full Arkansas Scrambler newsletters.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2020
  8. gjslsffan

    gjslsffan Staff Member Staff Member

    Say what?
     
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  9. To pull this together somewhat, maybe here I can summarize
    ~ much for Montreal, Red Rock, Burma & Midland areas,

    including "known" stations, mile posts #s, RR time tables, Mansfield Branch maps, spur car capacities, mine spurs between stations.
    Off course there is a lot still "unknown".
    Members can do a search on frisco.org for numerous other forum discussions about this interesting Mansfield Branch and its mysteries.
    This summary is just concerning what is in the Part 1 document The Arkansas Scrambler March 2018,
    Frisco's Mansfield Branch Part 1.
    [ For this forum discussion I will give the page numbers in case some wish to read about that area ].
    And there is a lot more within
    Frisco's Mansfield Branch Part 2
    Frisco's Mansfield Branch Part 3

    (Giving credit to Part 1 much of the content was from numerous prior seminars
    given prior by Tom Duggan, some by others like John, but Part 1 was written by Editor Mike Sypult since Tom had pasted away).

    Summary for Montreal, Red Rock, Burma & Midland:
    Part 1, https://s3.amazonaws.com/dayoneweb/364/1803.pdf
    - (Page 3 of 18 Part 1) Frisco Mansfield Branch track map ca. 1915.
    .....shows Burma & Midland (but no Red Rock) and a few other locations in ca. 1915
    .....Midland 1 spurs to a yard.
    .....Burma 1 spur forks to ways with curves. One likely was called a switchback.
    .....Montreal had a passing track and a spur to a mine.
    - (Page 4 of 18 Part 1) County Plat Map 1903.

    ......Burma & Montreal are shown, but no Midland.
    .....This unusual Plat map made no concern for the mainline passing tracks, spurs, yards and mines except for one spur at Sections 28 & 27.
    .....It shows no property borders. It does show some rural schools.
    - (Page 5 of 18 Part 1) Time Table #7, April 1898.

    ......Montreal mp 438.7 station's siding had 33 cars capacity.
    .....Red Rock spur mp 44o.7 , 6 cars,
    .....No Burma.
    - (Page 6 of 18 Part 1) Time Table #15 Dec. 1906
    .....Montreal Station mp 438.7, 115 cars.
    .....Midland Valley Rwy Crossings at mp 431.4 & mp 438.5
    .....no Burma and no Red Rock
    - (Page 7 of 18 Part 1) Sketched map: Map's name:
    .....The Frisco Mansfield Branch and surrounding railroads past & present.
    .....Between Montreal & Midland, the Frisco track paralleled the Midland Valley Railroad track. .....The map is from Steam Powered Video's, Comprehensive Railroad Atlas of North America, Prairies East and Ozarks - used by permission.
    .....Burma was not labeled & little details are given on the map.
    - (Page 9 of 18 Part 1) Time Table # 26 June 1912.
    .....provided by John Dill. Coal production is at a peak.
    .....Had 15 mining spurs between stations shown on the Time Table.
    .....Montreal Smokeless spur, mp 438.6 cars 13,
    .....Montreal Station mp 438.6, 17 cars.
    .....Midland Station mp 440.2 , no cars.
    .....Burma spur: 12 cars.
    - (Page 14 of 18, Part 1) Frisco Mansfield Branch's historical timeline
    .....compiled by Mike Sypult. Updated March 2018.

    - Frisco's Mansfield Branch Part 2.
    .....https://s3.amazonaws.com/dayoneweb/364/1804.pdf
    .....A look at the Frisco Mansfield Branch, Sebastian County, Arkansas By John Dill
    ....Time Table # 25, Oct. 1932. on page 6 of 21,
    ....Montreal mp 138.7 77 cars,
    ....Midland mp 140.2 66 cars.
    ....No Red Rock and no Burma.
    ---Both Midland Valley Rwy crossing with gates: mp 131.4 & mp 138.5

    Again, all of the above is mainly for at Montreal, Red Rock, Burma & Midland areas.


    ~~~~
    permission to post was given:
    info@arkrailfan.com
    To:Charles Petit
    Cc:Gary McCullah
    Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 10:27 AM

    Charles,
    You are welcome to post the aforementioned Arkansas Scrambler PDF files to the Frisco.org forum.
    We would prefer that you post the files as they are and not alter the content by screen snipping, etc.
    Let me know if you have any questions. We are glad to help!
    -Mike Sypult, Editor


    ADMIN NOTE: Mike did not give permission to alter or post selected portions of the Arkansas Scrambler.
    .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2020
  10. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    I haven't been online much lately, I hadn't seen this thread before (at least don't remember seeing it). Andre is too modest about his photos. They may not be perfect but they certainly are interesting and informative. We would have known much less without them.
    I've studied these Mansfield Branch tracks, mines, etc. for quite a few years now and I, for one, am still far from seeing the complete picture. As has been pointed out, the mines and mine tracks came and went. As to the Scrambler articles, we tried to include a lot of documentation in those articles, that wasn't previously widely available. Not everything could be included. If there is a specific question that I could attempt to answer, let me know and I'll give it a shot. John
     
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  11. Joe Lovett

    Joe Lovett Member

    I've been looking for photos of coal mines on the Mansfield Branch and only found about 5 of 6. They don't have what I'm looking for, want a medium complex with galvanized steel or wood sides. Getting ready to scratch build the mine and sawmill within the next week. The bases for both industries is 5.80 inches (77 feet) by 9.60 (188) and are interchangeable on the layout.

    Your help will be greatly appreciated.

    Joe

    20200719_171953.jpg
     
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  12. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    What time period? Do you want a specific "real" mine or just a general set of area period photos for a base reference? John
     
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  13. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    Mine B was the original "Red Rock" mine, operated by a company of the same name. The company was formed in 1898. Presumably the spur also dates from ca. 1898. A few years later this became the Dallas Coal Company No.4 Mine. Mine A was the Missouri and Arkansas Mine (later known as Denman Mine). It began operating around 1900. Mine C the Turnipseed Mine, also from that time period. Mine's 8-14 were small drift mines further up the side of the mountain. Coal from them was brought down on a tram to this tipple for shipping. Turnipseed had a double ended siding which had already been removed when this (ICC) map was drawn. Unfortunately this map isn't dated. I would guess Turnipseed was removed by 1915? The Denman Mine had also fallen out of production by then. The Dallas "drifts" lasted until the early 1920's and then most/all of this track was removed by 1923.
    The Frisco was unlucky in many of the town sites they established on the Mansfield Branch. They all had depots, of sorts, and maybe a store or post-office but other than Huntington and Mansfield none of the original towns prospered. Burma and to a lessor degree Montreal were destroyed by the establishment of Midland by a Midland Valley Railroad director after that railroad was built in 1903. The town was bordered on the south by the Midland Valley and the north by the Frisco. It's quick growth killed Burma (just a mile or so east) and seriously impacted Montreal to the north. Midland got the post-office from Burma around 1910 and the Frisco was also forced to build a depot there at about that date. This killed any hope of anything surviving at Burma. The Frisco also put a small depot at Arkoal between Midland and Huntington further degrading Burma.

    Question for those interested in historical trivia. What two railroads were involved in a relatively minor head-on east of Burma in 1909 (minor as in no fatalities)?? John
     
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  14. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    Here's the map, better late than never I guess.
     

    Attached Files:

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  15. Joe Lovett

    Joe Lovett Member

    John, time era isn't important, would like a photo general set for reference.

    Joe
     
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  16. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    As a rule, underground mining on the Mansfield Branch ran from 1887 to ca. 1923. Most of the mines were of all wood construction, perhaps with steel roofs. Many were large mines. Most later mines along the "Branch" were strip mines. The exception to the rule were several mines at Hackett in the 1930-up period. That's where Andre took many of the photos. Pictures of some of them have already been posted here on Frisco Org, somewhere, if my memory is correct. Not all loading tipples were at a mine. Many times, as in the Mine 8-18 Tipple on the map above, the mine was some distance from the railroad. Some of these "separated" tipples were covered (especially if coal was graded there) but some were open structures, basically just a trestle over the track. If space is a consideration you might consider this type of tipple. As an example of one, I'm attaching two photos of the Mine 8-13 tipple from the map above. (1) is the NW side (with a Frisco coal car underneath). (2) is the opposite SE side.
     

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  17. Joe Lovett

    Joe Lovett Member

    Thank you for posting the photos John.

    I think will make the coal mine from the two photos.

    Joe
     
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  18. Coonskin

    Coonskin Member

    John asked:
    Okay, I'll take a stab at it. To my understanding, there weren't any trackage rights shared by the MV and the Frisco... so that would leave the only trackage right agreement that I'm aware of on the Mansfield Branch: Rock Island over the Frisco.

    Am I right? Huh? Huh? Am I right??

    What do I win??

    Andre
     
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  19. john

    john FRISCO.org Supporter

    You nailed it Andre! At this time Missouri & Louisiana RR had trackage rights down to Doubleday (the coal washer) but only CRI&P had rights over the entire Branch. Friday Oct 8, 1909: 5:30 AM, westbound CRI&P passenger train met a "coal drag" pulled by a Frisco switch engine just east of Burma on the main. Must have almost gotten stopped because the newspaper account only mentions the passenger tender and a few coal cars derailed. GOOD JOB! (that's your reward) John
     
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  20. WOW we now have the experts here. Thanks guys.
    I knew starting this forum would get Frisco's Mansfield Branch to continue to grow.
    MORE & MORE please.
     

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