Discussion in '4-4-0 American' started by Oldguy, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member Frisco.org Supporter

  2. Jim James

    Jim James Staff Member Staff Member

    You're right about that, Bob. That first photo is perfect for my new Atlas 4-4-0. That tall coal bunker will be perfect to hide a decoder. Extend the smoke box and change the headlight. Some decal work and weathering. Hmmmmm. Thank you so much for posting this.

    SAFN SAAP Member

    Mouse pad off 77 coming right now!

    Done....Should be available shortly.

    Jim, get to scratchbuilding your second locomotive!
  4. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Hold on! Did you get the rights from Mark twain Hobbies to do it? You probably did, but just want to make sure.

    SAFN SAAP Member

    Excellent question. Old negatives cannot be copyrighted under the copyright laws unless by the original photographer. If he took the picture, which would make him 108 years old, then yes, I would have to ask. Otherwise, there is no legal copyright to these types of photos. Only the original taker can hold the copyright, and must exercise its right to protect it. The actual rights, if any, belong to the individual who originally took them, and if he didn't protect them, then they fall under free domain. You cannot copyright materials that already belong to another entity. I couldn't copyright anything from the SA&AP because that now belongs to the Union Pacific. Same with Frisco.

    However, I do want to respect his kindness in posting the photo. So I will ask him. I apologize if I jumped the gun. The pad is not available. I've contacted MTH.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2013

    SAFN SAAP Member

    Deleted...repetitive message.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2013
  7. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    What you say above is partly correct.

    U.S. copyrights for works created before 1923 have expired.

    Current U.S. copyright law ( since 1978 ) protects a work for the life of the author + 70 years.
    Works for hire can be copyrighted for 95 years from the date of publication, or 120 years from creation ( whichever is shorter ).

    Works for hire created prior to 1978 have a maximum copyright term of 95 years.

    Where your statement is incorrect is that works can be copyrighted after the death of the creator of the work. If the work was copyrighted prior to the creator's death, the copyright either belongs to the creator's estate or the company that the copyright was owned by ( either because the copyright was sold, or it was a work for hire ). A work can be copyrighted after the death of an creator if it was not published prior to the creator's death.


    SAFN SAAP Member


    A 1905 negative cannot be copyrighted by anyone but the original taker, unless it has been renewed. The 95 year statue of limits is over. Once the limit is reached, it's public domain, and cannot be re-copyrighted. I know this because I've had to deal with this regarding decal images, because folks think that by slapping their name and C symbol on it makes it theirs. That is incorrect. You cannot copyright anything belonging to the railroads. Made up stuff is protected, but actual stuff is not.

    I'm not getting into a ¤¤¤¤ing match here. The pad is dead. I'm not going to argue over this because it's not worth my time. I do the pads out of kindness and frankly how this has been handled has rubbed me wrong.

    SAFN SAAP Member

    From the copyright office in Washington D.C.:

    One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the copyright law (title 17, U. S. Code). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” The doctrine of fair use has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years and has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.
    Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair.

    1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
    2. The nature of the copyrighted work
    3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
    4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

    The distinction between what is fair use and what is infringement in a particular case will not always be clear or easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

    The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”

    Copyright protects the particular way authors have expressed themselves. It does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in a work.

    The safest course is to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission.
    When it is impracticable to obtain permission, you should consider avoiding the use of copyrighted material unless you are confident that the doctrine of fair use would apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine whether a particular use may be considered fair nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney.

    The photo of #77 falls under fair usage. Highlighted section is the crux of the law.

    I said I contacted MTH out of respect for them, and stopped the pad. It cannot be purchased, and I removed all trace of it. I'm not doing this for any profit. Just to keep the Frisco alive in the hearts of people. If you want to get all serious about it, then no one could ever post up any pictures out of fear of any infringement. I can't believe all this over a 1905 or earlier picture.

    SAFN SAAP Member

    From the Copyright Law, circ 15A:

    Works in Existence but Not Published or Copyrighted on January 1, 1978

    The law automatically gives federal copyright protection to works that were
    created but neither published nor registered before January 1, 1978. The duration
    of copyright in these works is generally computed the same way as for works
    created on or after January 1, 1978: life plus 70 years or 95 or 120 years, depending
    on the nature of authorship. However, all works in this category are guaranteed
    at least 25 years of statutory protection. The law specifies that in no case would
    copyright in a work in this category have expired before December 31, 2002. In
    addition, if a work in this category was published before that date, the term
    extends another 45 years, through the end of 2047.

    [h=3]Welcome to the Public Domain[/h]
    The term “public domain” refers to creative materials that are not protected by intellectual property laws such as copyright, trademark, or patent laws. The public owns these works, not an individual author or artist. Anyone can use a public domain work without obtaining permission, but no one can ever own it. An important wrinkle to understand about public domain material is that, while each work belongs to the public, collections of public domain works may be protected by copyright. If, for example, someone has collected public domain images in a book or on a website, the collection as a whole may be protectible even though individual images are not. You are free to copy and use individual images but copying and distributing the complete collection may infringe what is known as the “collective works” copyright. Collections of public domain material will be protected if the person who created it has used creativity in the choices and organization of the public domain material. This usually involves some unique selection process, for example, a poetry scholar compiling a book -- The Greatest Poems of e.e. cummings.
    There are four common ways that works arrive in the public domain:

    • the copyright has expired
    • the copyright owner failed to follow copyright renewal rules
    • the copyright owner deliberately places it in the public domain, known as “dedication,” or
    • copyright law does not protect this type of work.

    The following section looks at each of these routes into the public domain more closely.
    [h=3]Expired Copyright[/h]
    Copyright has expired for all works published in the United States before 1923. In other words, if the work was published in the U.S. before January 1, 1923, you are free to use it in the U.S. without permission. As an example, the graphic illustration of the man with mustache (above) was published sometime in the 19th century and is in the public domain, so no permission was required to include it within this book. These rules and dates apply regardless of whether the work was created by an individual author, a group of authors, or an employee (a work made for hire).

    Because of legislation passed in 1998, no new works will fall into the public domain until 2019, when works published in 1923 will expire. In 2020, works published in 1924 will expire, and so on. For works published after 1977, if the work was written by a single author, the copyright will not expire until 70 years after the author’s death. If a work was written by several authors and published after 1977, it will not expire until 70 years after the last surviving author dies.
  11. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I'm not arguing that point. It was created prior to 1923, and anything created prior to 1923 is out of copyright and in the public domain.

    What I was commenting on was that you stated:
    For photographs taken AFTER 1923, the works may still be under copyright, even if the original photographer never filled out the copyright registration.

    I make my living on copyrighted material, so I understand how the law currently in place works (I can't say I have any works that were created prior to 1978).

  12. pbender

    pbender Member Frisco.org Supporter

    This is the clause frequently called the "Micky Mouse" extension.

  13. Cornell University has a useful reference chart for copyright dates:

    The fact that published pictures and information about the pre-1923 period are almost always public domain, and not subject to the effectively eternal copyrights that the big media companies paid Congress to give them on everything from the first appearance of Mickey Mouse until the final extinguishment of the Sun, is one of the advantages of studying and modeling that period.

    SAFN SAAP Member


    I apologize if I misunderstood what you were referencing. I was speaking solely about all materials prior to 1923, which the photo of #77 defintely is. That photo is public domain now, unless it can be proven that the photo rights were handed off, and registered, which I'm sure they weren't. That's why I made the mouse pad image. I knew more over than not, that it was public domain. Just because someone smacks a "copyright" on it, doesn't mean that it fits the law. I did however, contact Bob's friend because I don't want to ruffle feathers, even though I am under no legal obligation to do so in this instant.

    SAFN SAAP Member

    Received this morning. Many thanks to MTH and Mr. Babbitt for the photo.

    On 3/3/2013 6:18 PM, Randall Morgan wrote:

    Dear Mark Twain Hobbies,

    My name is Manny and I am a member of the Frisco.org forum. I am making mousepads for the group out of various pictures of locomotives, cars, stations, models, etc. A picture of Frisco #77 was linked and I'd like to do a mouse pad of it for the group. Since this is an old negative picture, and you are in possession, I'm asking to use the picture you posted. Mr. Bob Dye asked me to contact you and get your approval.

    Please kindly grant this request, so that we can continue to keep the memory of the Frisco alive. I may be reached at 210-239-6687.

    [SIZE=4]Thank you,


    [SIZE=4]Manny Morgan
    [SIZE=4]F[SIZE=4]ris[SIZE=4]co.org member[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

    Thanks for the note. I don't have a problem with you using the image. Let me rescan and run it through Photoshop to see if I can get a better copy for you. All I ask is that you give us credit for it's usage.


    Dennis Babbitt
    Mark Twain Hobby Center
  16. renapper

    renapper Passed away March 8, 2013

    Now that you have permission, does this mean you will make the mouse pad, Manny?

    SAFN SAAP Member

    Yes, the pad will be available shortly.

    Frisco 77 Mouse Pad.jpg
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2013
  18. Oldguy

    Oldguy Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I'm glad that you got this straightened out. First, I don't know anyone at Mark Twain Hobbies, I saw the little copywrite symbol by the photo and didn't want you to get in any kind of trouble after the fact. That is why I inserted the link and not just the photo. I know what you are doing as a labor of love and didn't think you needed any hassles that might have arisen from its usage.

    SAFN SAAP Member


    I owe you an apology. I realize that you were just looking out for me. I appreciate that. At first, I took it as being called out openly and didn't like that. I was like, "Why didn't he PM me this instead of posting it openly?" That's what started me on the copyright [​IMG]. I was just frustrated because folks slap copyrights on things like Carter has liver pills. I figured you knew them, so I followed through. It all worked out. I apologize for being testy. You were just looking out for me. I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong, and I was. Please forgive me.

    We're all good. One big happy Frisco family. Even families have tiff's now and then. LOL...
  20. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    :) Whew ... My head hurts!

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