4-6-0 December 24, 1915

Discussion in '4-6-0 Ten Wheeler' started by john, May 18, 2001.

  1. john

    john Guest

    SLSF UNK 4-6-0 -1915

    John C. Talley to B.B. Talley on December 24, 1915. His father, Benjamin Branch, had died in August 1903, so it would have been given to his little brother B.B. (initials only) Born in July 1903. So B.B. would have been twelve years old at the time and possibly living in Enid with them. Don't know where the picture was taken. Looks like a corn field in the background. Richard Talley

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2005
    Joe Lovett and FriscoCharlie like this.
  2. w3hodoug

    w3hodoug 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    It could be nicely modeled in HO with the new 52" driver ten wheeler from Bachmann.
  3. Jim James

    Jim James Staff Member Staff Member

    That's what I was thinkin'! Unfortunately my old Bachmann Spectrum ten wheeler is the larger diameter wheel. That looks very tall.
  4. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Is that an AUX water car behind the tender?
  5. Steamnut

    Steamnut cinder sniffer

    See, you DON'T have to have ballast to have a prototypical layout...
  6. William Jackson

    William Jackson Bill Jackson

    True, in older times they used dirt and cinders for ballast, on the Wichita line every time it snowed, it was easy to spot where the cinder fires were. (Cinders used for fill, or ballast caught on fire under ground and sometimes from the reflection off the snow)
    paul slavens likes this.
  7. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    The use of dirt as ballast must not be construed as a lack of ballast. My father was always adamant about that. He opined that in the proper application, dirt ballast was perfectly fine. It is true that dirt is a high maintenance solution, because it must be kept weed-free and properly dressed to the correct profile to function properly. It should be noted that the ballast section for dirt is different than it is for coarse-grained aggregates. During a time in which 5-10 man section crews coved 6-10 miles of track, this was not a problem. As the size of locomotives and rolling stock increased, and as labor costs rose, the use of dirt ballast became uneconomical and impractical.

    Falling back to my oft-repeated observation, “It’s always about the geology”, it was no surprise to me, when I discovered that my Engineering Geology text dedicated a section of the aggregate chapter to railroad ballast.
    Ozarktraveler likes this.
  8. Steamnut

    Steamnut cinder sniffer

    Those points are interesting. Considering that what little I know about prototypical right-of-way maintenance, I always understood that the rule was "drainage, drainage ,drainage", and didn't think that dirt could really hold up there. I can't see plain dirt actually doing any real good when turned to mud, but I'm no expert. Go figure...

    I guess that I see neither dirt, cinders nor rock ballast between those ties I should have thrown a smiley ;) after my first post, as that picture looks more like my layouts that I've built. (no ballast, etc...)
  9. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    This makes me wonder how many out-of-the-way branches that were abandoned during the 1930s would had dirt ballast only until the day their iron was pulled up?

    Extending that a bit further, are there any sources that would indicate what type of ballasting was used at a given location at a given time? Or, perhaps it's just using one's best, educated guess in lieu of any documentation or photographic evidence.

    Best Regards,
  10. Steamnut

    Steamnut cinder sniffer

    The Texas Midland that ran from Ennis to Paris, Texas (not far from the house - passing thru Greenville and Terrell) thru a region that was rich in aggregate. Hetty Green refused to spend money on ballast, giving the road the nickname "The Texas Mudland". I can walk the old right of way in a dozen different spots and see no evidence that any rock was put down at all.
  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Here's is the 1914 Frisco dirt (and fine aggregates) ballast standard. Note that at the track center, the ballast is 4" above the tie, and it slopes downward so that by the end of the tie, the dirt is at the same elevation as the bottom of the tie. Given this profile, it might apear from certain vantage points that the track lacks ballast. Note also the slope to the sub-grade. This is how good drainage is achieved. It's very different from the standard for coarser aggregates. You can also see how much work it might take to keep this profile maintained. If you have James Fair's book on the North Arkansas, take a look at the pic on the bottom of page 51. There you's see an excellent example a very fine dirt railroad.
    dirt_ballast section.jpg
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
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  12. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Track and rail charts usually provide the ballast section. Attached is a 1930 example from the Aurora Br and a 1948 example of parts of the River Division. On the River Division, everything is chat except as noted.

    Joe Lovett likes this.
  13. TAG1014

    TAG1014 Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Boy Karl those diagrams are great. Do you have any of those from around Springfield, like around Turner or Nichols Junction?

    Thanks, Tom G.
  14. Jim James

    Jim James Staff Member Staff Member

    Louis Houck built the Zalma Branch near the Castor River because the creek gravel provided good ballast. That was in 1887. The few photos I've seen of the track shows very little ballast though. The line was abandoned and removed in 1934-35.
  15. klrwhizkid

    klrwhizkid Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Jim, I very seriously doubt that Houck's lines made use of ballast except where it could be very literally thrown directly from a creek or river bed onto the right of way. The descriptions of track conditions my great grandfather gave of the pre-Frisco roadbed from Cape to Puxico and on to Poplar Bluff were pretty bleak. He said that in a lot of places, "we seemed to be running in dirt with no rails or rails on top of dirt." The use of ballast by Houck was prettly much limited to areas that water might get over in flood conditions to try to prevent washouts.
    timothy_cannon likes this.
  16. Jim James

    Jim James Staff Member Staff Member

    I don't doubt that a bit. His lines weren't known for high quality construction and laying track on swamp land was iffy at best I'm sure.
  17. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Looks like the Malden and Campbell branches probably never upgraded from the dirt surfaces. Thanks very much, Karl.

    Best Regards,
  18. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

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