1957 Texas Special Car Assignments

Discussion in 'Passenger Operations' started by TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020), Sep 23, 2011.

  1. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    This from a frisco passenger car assignment list from 1957, Frisco route St. Louis to Vinita:
    A--Baggage/Storage mail....MKT 2651, 2664, SLSF 385, 2043
    B--RPO-Baggage...............MKT 1000, 229, SLSF 208
    C--Chair car (Partn.).........MKT 1202, 1203, SLSF 1259
    D--Chair-Lounge-Buffet.....SLSF 1652, MKT 1300, 1301
    E--Chair (Partn.)..............SLSF 1071, 2 cars MKT 900 class
    F--Diner..........................SLSF 650
    G--Sleeper.......................1 car SLSF, 1 MKT, 1 B&O
    H--Sleeper.......................1 car, SLSF, 2 PRR, 2 MKT
    I--Sleeper........................2 cars SLSF, 1 MKT
    J--Obs-Lounge-Sleeper.......SLSF 1350, MKT 1400, 496

    2651, 2664, 385, 2043, 229, 208, 1071, 900's, 496 All heavyweight.

    B--Passeger baggage & storage mail.
    G--From B&O tr. 1 at St. Louis.
    H--From PRR tr. 3 at St. Louis.
    J--2 Lightweight Obs-Lounge-Sleepers, MKT HW lounge.
    All cars except F to MKT at Vinita.

    A-B-C-D-E-I-J--St.Louis to San Antonio
    F--St. Louis to Springfiled
    G--Washington to Dallas
    H--New York to San Antonio

    10 cars St. Louis to Springfield
    9 cars Springfield to Vinita

    Frisco Car Limit:
    St. Louis-Springfield: 2 unit E-7-17 cars, 2 unit E-8-18 cars.
    Springfield-Vinita: 2 unit E-7-18 cars, 2 unit E-8 19 cars.
    MKT Car Limit:
    2 unit E-7-16 cars, 2 unit E-8 16 cars.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2011
  2. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    This is from a selected Texas Special consist from May 26th, 1958. Note quite a change in about one year! This consist is from the route segment Springfield to Denison, Texas.

    --MKT 151A ALCO PA St. L-Denison
    --MKT 123C EMD FP-7A St. L-Denison

    --SLSF 208 30' RPO-baggage. St. L.-Denison
    --SLSF 2043 (ex-RPO) Storage mail. St. L-Ft. Worth
    --MP 4169 Baggage Muskogee-San Antonio
    --MKT 2653 Baggage Muskogee-San Antonio, via Ft. Worth
    --MKT 50 Storage mail Muskogee-Dallas
    --MKT 231 RPO-Bag as Storage mail Musk-SA, via Dallas
    --MKT 1205 Chair car St. Louis-San Antonio
    --SLSF 1651 Ch-Buf-Lounge St. Louis-San Antonio
    --MKT 438 Diner Muskogee-San Antonio
    --MKT 906 Chair car Muskogee-San Antonio
    --MKT B R Milam 14-4 Sleeper St. Louis-San Antonio
    --SLSF G G Vest 14-4 Sleeper Washington--SA
    --PRR Tioga Rapids 10-6 Sleeper NY-San Antonio

    Cars 208, 2043, 4169, 2653, 50, 231, 438, 906 All heavyweights. Car 208 painted red and silver shadowline scheme. Note no observation or lounge car. These were discontinued Fall 1958 and run irregularly at times before being discontinued.

    Tom

    Note: Cars marked "baggage" were very likely "working" mail, "storage" mail or Railway Express. Passenger baggage was usually carried where the train's baggage man was riding, likely in the baggage compartment of the RPO.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2011
  3. Joseph Toth

    Joseph Toth Member

    This is a reminder to all members who have not yet ordered their copy of the TRRA Publication #69 on the Texas Special, that there are less than 100 copies left. This count is almost a year old. I ordered two copies! One "working" and one for my library. These two were ordered after the 100 remaining copies...consider it at "98" now...LOL

    This publication can stand alone but is a great suppliment to the Frisco and Katy books that have been printed to date with Texas Special coverage.

    Don´t delay, order your copy today! Check their site on the Frisco.org menu in the upper left hand margin and you go straight to it and get the information on this excellent publication.

    Joe Toth
     
  4. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Tom

    Good stuff! One very small detail, PRR Tioga Rapids was a 10-6, not a 10-5. The PRR 10-5's were in the "Cascade" series, two of which were the original cars assigned the TS and painted red-and-shadowline, but they had been replaced by 1957 with the more modern "Rapids" 10-6's.

    Are other trains covered by that assignment list???

    Gordon
     
  5. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    There's some more info, but it's almost illegible. I have to eyeball it and re-type it. I'll try to get to some more later. I'll correct the PRR sleeper.

    Thanks, Tom
     
  6. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    CAR ASSIGNMENTS
    TRAIN 9, THE METEOR ST. LOUIS-LAWTON 7-15-57

    A. Baggage Springfield-Ft. Smith 309, 346
    B. Baggage St. Louis-Paris 430, 432
    C. Baggage St. Louis-OKC 431, 437
    D. RPO-baggage (30') St. Louis-OKC 251-252
    E. Baggage OKC-Lawton 371
    F. RPO-baggage (15') OKC-Lawton 224
    G. Dorm-Chair Car St. Louis-OKC 1095, 1091
    H. Chair Car St. Louis-OKC 1651, 765
    (Line H is a mistake, it should probably read Chair-Buffet-Lounge and have 1650 or 1652 as the second car, 765 is a heavyweight chair car OR have another chair car instead of 1651)
    I. Chair Car St. Louis-Lawton 1257, 1258
    J. Sleeper Car 94 St. Louis-Lawton 2 Cars
    K. Sleeper Car 93 St. Louis-OKC 2 Cars
    L. Sleeper Car 92 St. Louis-Tulsa 2 Cars
    M. Sleeper Car 97 St. Louis-Ft. Smith 2 Cars
    N. Diner-Lounge-Obs. St. Louis-Lawton 1550-1551

    309, 346, 430, 432, 431, 437, 371, 224, 1091, 765 (If correct??), Sleeper 97 all heavyweight cars.

    A. Operates Monett-Ft. Smith Tr.709. Returns Ft. Smith-Springfield Tr. 704-4. Sealed Springfield to Monett.

    B. Operates Monett-Paris Tr. 709. Returns Paris-St. Louis Tr. 704-4.

    M. Operates Monett-Ft. Smith Tr. 709. Returns Ft. Smith-St. Louis Tr. 704-10.

    No. of Cars and car limits:
    11 St. Louis-Springfield 2 unit E-7, 17; 2 unit E-8, 18
    12 Springfield-Monett 2 unit E-7, 20; 2 unit E-8, 21
    9 Monett-Tulsa, Monett-OKC 2 unit E-7, 20; 2 unit E-8, 22; 1 unit E-7, 11; 1 unit E-8, 12
    8 Tulsa-OKC, OKC-Lawton 2 unit E-7, 17; 2 unit E-8, 18
    5 OKC-Lawton

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2011
  7. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Tom

    Thanks -- you knew what I wanted to see! It is possible line H is not a mistake. I see 1652 was assigned to the TS at this time and it is possible that 1650 was OOS for shopping for some reason. It is sort of surprising that they would assign a straight coach in this line rather than a HW coach-buffet, but that's something we'll probably never know. I was also interested to see the car limits set for OKC-Monett. I have always contended that in the early days of operation of the streamlined Meteor, before delivery of the E-8's, that two E-7's operated StL-Monett with the pair then split and one each going to OKC and Paris. The only photographic evidence I have seen of the Meteor with a single unit is the Preston George shot between Tulsa and OKC that is in the Collias book. There were two sleepers set out at Tulsa, so between Monett and Tulsa there would normally have been at least 10 cars, or 11 if there was also a Tulsa set-out baggage/express car. So now I have confirmation that, in fact, that was possible as an E-7 was rated for 11 cars. The Preston George shot is of a single E-8, so apparently the practice continued, as least south of Tulsa, for some period of time after delivery of the E-8's, but I don't think it was too long before two units began operating all the way through -- in fact, all the way to Lawton based on another published photograph. While apparently possible, I have to think that a single E-7 was struggling to handle 11 cars (4 of them HW) between Monett and Tulsa.

    Gordon
     
  8. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Gordon--I think you're correct about the earlier practice of splitting the pair of Meteor units at Monett, sending one to Paris (Or Ft. Smith, at least) and the other to OKC. Besides the Preston George photo, there's an early aerial photo of the Meteor in Oklahoma by the Tulsa newspaper editor, with an unusual name (Forget name??), who was an air buff, but liked to take aerial RR photos. The train had a single silver side E-7 (So it was before 1950) and a few cars, all lightweight, but with one HW baggage, also a B&O sleeper. This flyer/photographer/editor's photo appeared in an early trains magazine, but I can't reference the date just now. I don't have any consists showing dividing the units at Monett, but maybe we can find something later on.
    As for the scrambled assignments of the chair-buffet-lounge cars (1650-1651-1652), there's a photo in Ray George's "M-K-T Lines In Color" book of the Texas Special at the platform (In Waco, if I remmber) with one of the Frisco C-B-L cars. The photo has Ray's dad holding a grandchild and chatting with the Katy comductor.

    Terry--There are some Frisco passenger consists showing car numbers on the Yahoo Passenger Consist Group. I referenced them in an earlier thread. There's also the 1956 assignment list scanned among the FMIG newsletters. That list has which HW cars were painted red and silver and you can construct consists using the list. As for the car window numbers, I had only seen them before in public timetables.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2011
  9. mktjames

    mktjames Member

    Good stuff, new information for me on the TS, I had only found the MKT PA listing going into ST.L. as to the time when the E8's were bought and thought they had went to the mail trains after that. I did not know the listing for them was carried all the way to 1957 even by the SLSF. mktjames
     
  10. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    There are a lot of pictures in daylight of single Katy engines parked at the St. Louis Union Station, those were very likely the Katy Flyer's engines laying over. The Texas Special units (Frisco's or Katy's) were serviced by the Frisco at Lindenwood. Katy engines "sometimes" ran to St. Louis on the Texas Special and Frisco engines "sometimes" ran as far south as Waco. This wasn't a regular practice, but the product of the compainies trading off mileage.

    Tom
     
  11. mktjames

    mktjames Member

    The new imformation listing is not for a single PA engine used on the mail train Katy Flyer , I have those listings and many pictures , this was for the TS of MKT PA #151A and MKT FP7 #123C used in 1957. I did not know they had been used that late in premium service and thought they all had been reassigned to the Katy Flyer and Bluebonnet in late 1950, when E8 106 A&C and early 1951 when 107 A&C were added to the Katy motive power. lets see I got to add something about SLSF for this thread , I will be able to use my single SLSF E7 for the OKC or Paris split. mktjames
     
  12. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom -
    Superb stuff. This is the type of information that makes me swoon. Many, many thanks for preserving and sharing!

    Best Regards,
     
  13. Friscotony

    Friscotony Member

    Tom, great job. Keep up the good work and bring on more. This is what I like to see on the site, not complaints about whatever.

    Tony
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2011
  14. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Another Texas Special consist--August 5th, 1958--Train #2, Denison to Springfield.

    Engines:
    --MKT 151A ALCO PA Denison-Muskogee
    --MKT 122B EMD F-7B Denison-Muskogee

    --SLSF 5042 FP-7 Muskogee-Springfield
    --SLSF 2003 E-7 Muskogee-Springfield

    Cars:
    --SLSF 211 30' RPO-baggage
    --SLSF 2043 (ex 60' RPO) Mail storage Muskogee-Springfield
    --MKT 2658 Baggage Denison-Muskogee
    --MKT 2663 Baggage Denison-Muskogee
    --MKT 2653 Baggage Denison-Muskogee
    --MKT 227 (RPO as mail storage) Denison-Muskogee
    --MKT 1206 Chair Car
    --SLSF 1252 Chair Car
    --MKT 438 Diner Denison-Muskogee
    --MKT 917 Chair Car
    --MKT B R Milam Sleeper
    --B&O Marsh Brook Sleeper
    --PRR Tioga Rapids Sleeper
    --MKT 400 Business Car Denison-Muskogee
    --SLSF 462 Baggage (Deadhead) Denison-Springfield

    Cars 211, 2043, 2658, 2663, 2653, 227, 438, 917, 400, 462 all heavyweight.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2011
  15. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Meteor Consist, Train #9, 9-17-57, St. Louis to Monett.

    --SLSF 2005 EMD E-7
    --SLSF 2008 EMD E-8

    --SLSF 432 Baggage St. Louis-Ft. Smith
    --SLSF 364 Baggage St. Louis-OKC
    --SLSF 251 RPO-Baggage St. Louis-OKC
    --SLSF 1401 Lounge St. Louis-OKC
    --SLSF 1095 Dorm-Chair Car St. L.-OKC
    --SLSF 765 Chair Car St. Louis-OKC
    --SLSF 1256 Chair Car St. Louis-Lawton
    --SLSF 1506 Diner-Lounge St.L.-Lawton
    --SLSF James River 14-4 St.L.-Lawton
    --SLSF Canadian River 14-4 St. L.-OKC
    --SLSF Eugene Field 14-4 St. Louis-Tulsa
    --SLSF Villa Superb 10-3 St. Louis-Ft. Smith
    --SLSF 346 Baggage (Mail) Springfield-Ft. Smith

    Cars 432, 364, 1401, 765, 1506, Villa Superb, 346 all heavyweight. Evidently 1401 was subbing for the Chair-Buffet-Lounge and 1506 was subbing for the Observation-Diner-Lounge. The "baggage" cars were most likely working mail, storage mail or Railway Express. Passenger baggage was probably carried in the baggage compartment of the RPO 251. Note Fort Smith "Baggage" car tacked on tail end for easier switching at Monett.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2011
  16. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    One More:
    4-8-57 Car Assignments for tr.117-118, The Firefly, Ft. Scott-Tulsa

    A. 30' RPO-Baggage 209, 217
    B. 15' RPO-Baggage-Chair 82, 82 (Original steam era Firefly cars)
    C. Chair Car 751, 772, 773
    ...............................................................................................
    B. RPO inactive. (This answers the question why many photos of 117-118 show TWO RPO cars!)
    C. Pool, trains 117, 517, 518, 118 (Kansas City-Tulsa-Dallas)

    117-118 combined with 107-108 between Kansas City and Ft. Scott.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2011
  17. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom,
    This answer begets another question, i.e., if the RPO-Baggage is used solely as a baggage car, why not use a full baggage car?
     
  18. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Beats me, 82 and 83 were Coach-Baggage-RPO combines but, maybe they only needed so much baggage or mail space and the extra coach space might have come in handy?? I had earlier guessed that there might have been a lot of Frisco, Railway Mail and Railway Express employees deadheading between Kansas City, Ft. Scott and Tulsa?? In Springfield, there were quite a few Railway Mail clerks that ran on the KC-Memphis line and they had to deadhead on passes to Kansas City.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2011
  19. gstout

    gstout Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I understand that it is an article of faith that both the METEOR and the TEXAS SPECIAL were "classic" trains (Art Dubin said so), and in the heavyweight era I guess they were, but looking over the consists posted by my friend Tom, it is evident that the glory days for both had passed by the late 1950s. I am trying to think how many flagship trains were discontinued before 1960, and I come up with the TEXAS SPECIAL, NORTH WESTERN LIMITED, ROYAL BLUE, and ... what? Can anybody name another?

    GS
     
  20. Joseph Toth

    Joseph Toth Member

    The downgrade of the Texas Special was a pity. I always thought it should have carried dome cars. The model railroad manufactures did a good job of outfitting the train with domes of course. The Frisco leg of the trip through the Ozarks would have brought out the sheer beauty of them in a dome car!

    I cannot list all the flagship passenger trains that were either discontinued or downgraded like the Texas Special but it is ironic that some roads like the Santa Fe, Northern Pacific and the Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line continued to operate first class trains. Even after the ACL and SAL merged to form the Seaboard Coast Line, the trains remained "clean machines" up to the birth of Amtrak. Too bad the Frisco couldn´t have created a St. Louis-Dallas/Ft. Worth train after pulling out of the Texas Special operation with the Katy. It could have operated with the GM&O and captured the Chicago market too since the GM&O operated several trains on a daily basis from Chicago to St. Louis. Seems like the Ozark scenery would have sold itself when compaired to the Santa Fe´s Texas Chief on the Chicago-D/FW run.

    Joe Toth
     

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