E7A (EA7) SLSF 2003 "Steel Dust"

Discussion in 'EA7' started by Firsco FireFly, Nov 16, 2005.

  1. Some E7A (EA7) photographs for the group.
     

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  2. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    E7A (EA7) SLSF 2003 - Meteor / Texas Special Equipment Test Run - Bristow, OK - 3/11/1948

    I have had this shot for years and have wracked my brain trying to figure out where it was taken.

    It is time for you super sleuths out there to bail me out again like you did on the 4100 shots.

    Thanks in advance.
     

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  3. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Well, the good news is that the Frisco had but 6 steel water tanks, and two of those were at Wittenburg, MO and Marked Tree, AR.

    The daylight appearance of the Texas Special is a bit problematic.
     
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  4. kenmc

    kenmc KenMc Frisco.org Supporter

    This was probably on a demonstration run in 1948 on the Northern Division, say in Cuba or somewhere along there.

    Don Wirth may recognize the place.

    Ken McElreath
     
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  5. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    Hi Ken,

    Don Wirth is the one trying to find out where it is.

    I know it us not Cuba because Cuba had a big concrete water tank on the opposite side of the tracks from the depot.

    The depot did not look like this one either.

    Somebody out there has to recognize the place.

    I keep thinking Oklahoma somewhere.

    Don
     
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  6. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    I have a bit of conflicting information, but I think that I know where it is.

    In July 1955, the Frisco ran an investors special over most of the road. A large report, which extolled the strides that the railroad had made toward modernization was given to each participant. On page 45 of this document, it states that the Frisco retired 213 wooden water tanks, 12 concrete water tanks and 6 steel tanks which were made obsolete by diesel power.

    This web site has a photo of a tank at Wittenburg, MO, and I have drawings for the foundation of the steel tank at Marked Tree, AR. That leaves 4. Don reports that there was a steel tank at Lindenwood, MO. That leaves 3.

    Additional research indicates that the Frisco built a steel tank at Ozark, MO of all places, during the summer of 1928. A 100,000 gallon tank was built at Bristow, OK during the Spring of 1930, and another 100,000 gallon tank was installed at Oklahoma City. Finally during the summer of 1935 a steel tank was built at Carbon Hill, AL. That makes 7 steel tanks.

    I think that I will hang my hat on Bristow, OK.

    While looking through my stuff, I found another photograph of the same train. Location was listed as Unknown.
     

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  7. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Hi Karl,

    That photo and some similar ones have been around for a while.

    There is one in Arthur Dubin's book More Classic Trains. It has been attributed to the Texas Special running somewhere in Texas in the snow.

    I think it is actually a shakedown run of a brand new trainset of Meteor or Texas Special equipment on a special in Oklahoma. I have read that someplace, Collias, Marre, Frisco Southwest, but I forget where.

    I do not know what the Bristow station looked like, but I would say that was a good guess, better than Arthur Dubin's! I have a copy of that and some other similar shots that I bought at a train show. They must have been Frisco company photographs.

    I believe Don Wirth's photograph below was on the same trip.

    Regards,

    Tom
     
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  8. I do not know where the photograph was taken but there were more steel water tanks than 7, because there was also one at Fort Scott, KS.

    It was torn down in 1958 and used by a ready-mix concrete company until fairly recently.
     
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  9. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    The engine facilities at Yale had a steel tank, too.

    When the July 1955 Investors' Special Brochure noted that the Frisco retired 6 steel water, I inferred that this was all that the Frisco had. As is clear now, there were more than six, and perhaps these survived such as the one at Ft Scott, to serve other functions.

    Regardless, having a steel tank at a location other than an engine facility is a singular occurrence, at least on the Frisco, and Bristow still is a leading candidate for the location of these photographs. I am trying to find other locations with steel tanks.

    Tom,

    You have hit upon one of my pet peeves.

    I amazed at the frequency that rail authors mislabel their photographs. It is one thing to put forth a guess as to a location or date, it is something else to miss something depicted in the photograph.

    In Dorman's books on the narrow gauge there are a couple of shots in which he describes a pair of locomotives as being double-headed. A closer look shows the main rods of the second engine being removed and carried in the coal bunker.

    There are several Frisco photographs in the rail fan press in which the date given is the early 1940s. The tender however carries the large post-war numerals.

    Here is one from the March 1989 issue of TRAINS. I do not know if the editors at TRAINS supplied the caption or if Stagner did. Either way, they both should know better.
     

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  10. kenmc

    kenmc KenMc Frisco.org Supporter

    Don and all,

    I have a print of this same train, I think, in the Springfield station.

    There is also snow on the ground in similar fashion.

    Thus, I would vote also for the Bristow OK site.

    Ken McElreath
     
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  11. Steve40cal

    Steve40cal Member

    The Frisco depot in Bristow is still there today and it is a red brick structure.

    The one in the photograph posted does not appear to be brick. The Bristow depot also has an operators bay window on the track side. The steel water tank is still there behind the depot and it has a tornado siren on top of it.

    I never have looked to see where the old stand pipe was but I think an old house track ran behind the depot close to the tank. The track also curves to the right if you were looking the same direction the photographer is looking.

    Hope this helps in your quest. I miss the Frisco!!

    Steve.
     
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  12. slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018)

    slsfrr (Jerome Lutzenberger RIP 9/1/2018) Engineer Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I also believe that the location is Bristow, OK.

    The building you see is the old freight house that stood east timetable direction, of the depot. The water tower is west of the depot. There is a siding to the left of the train, but I can not make it out with the snow.

    I remember seeing the foundation of a water column and it was east and across the track from the depot.

    Jerome
     
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  13. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    This is another photo from the same series.

    Snow pattern on the anti-climber is the same as below.

    Maybe this is the one Ken McElreath is speaking of?

    But it is not Springfield, though platform sheds are similar. I got this shot at a train show years ago. If you squint, you can see a substantial structure behind the reefer in the background. It might be a church or temple dome, etc.

    Something else I noticed with a magnifying glass. The streamline cars are a Meteor set. There are no small road name plates at the ends of the letter boards like the Texas Special cars.

    Tom
     

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  14. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    More info on: "Texas Special 2003 Where is it?"

    In the November 1984 of Passenger Train Journal, page 26 in Larry Thomas' article "Frisco Pacers" quoting from one of the paragraphs:

    "...March 10-11, 1948, a Meteor consist (none of the equipment had seen operation yet) made a round trip between Springfield and Oklahoma City. A snowfall on March 9 made for some excellent photography by the public relations staff. The test run was powered by E7As 2000 and 2003 (newly arrived and not yet in "official service") painted for Texas Special service; sometimes these particular photos are confused with later photos of the real Texas Special..."

    Tom
     
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  15. Midmo1

    Midmo1 Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Just happened to look at the photograph.

    You guys know more about this than I, location, etc. But just ahead of the engine compartment door on SLSF 2003, stands a water column.

    Why the tank and the water column?

    And in my opinion that tank stands a good 30 to 40 yards from what looks to be one track. Do not know. Thought I would throw that in.

    Maybe that is a city water or potable water, not tender water.

    Ted
     
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  16. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Sometimes the tank was just the storage for the supply, like a city water system, and the standpipe delivered the water to the engine.

    In that case there was probably a pump house nearby to fill the tank.

    Also there were probably places where there was not room for the water tank near the tracks.

    Tom
     
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  17. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    I think Tom may have the train correctly identified.

    I agree that it is a Meteor set based on the lack of small ownership plates near the vestibules, but if you look at the first car behind the Baggage RPO it is a straight coach, not a dorm-coach which would have had a large blank area ahead of the first window. This would be consistent with a pre-inaugural test train as the dorm-coaches were not delivered until shortly after the train was actually in revenue service.

    That would certainly narrow down the date and geographical area, but I cannot help with the exact location.

    Gordon
     
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  18. tim gungoll

    tim gungoll Member

    I was just in Bristow today for court.

    The station is still there and has been remodeled in recent years. I did not have my camera with me or I would have taken pictures. There was also a Frisco caboose on site that is part of a small museum. You can go inside it if you request it but it was not open today due to a wasp problem.

    The caboose is 999334 SLSF. In the small museum in the station there is a neat small picture of the Firefly circa 1941 picking up troops in Bristow. There are two photographs of older steam engines that I did not have the knowledge to identify. I have requested that copies be made of all. I will post them when I get them along with pictures of the station and the caboose. The caboose was brought in from California.

    That could be Bristow in the picture. The water tower is still there. I will try to confirm when I go back next month.
     
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  19. tim gungoll

    tim gungoll Member

    I forgot to add the number on the Firefly was 1501 if I remember correctly
     
  20. pensive

    pensive Member Frisco.org Supporter

    At a train show yesterday, I purchased a copy of the Summer 2009 edition of the Journal of the Terminal Railroad Association of St. Louis Historical and Technical Society.

    The entire issue of 150 pages was devoted to The Texas Special. It confirms that the location of Don's photograph is Bristow Oklahoma. It was taken during a shakedown run of the Meteor in March 1948, although there are Texas Special cars in the consist as well as being powered by the Texas Special E7As (EA7).

    On page 29 the article says "the train departed from Tulsa and spent the night in Oklahoma City. During the night the was a terrific blizzard with snow and ice blanketing the entire region. On Thursday morning, March 11, 1948, the train departed from Oklahoma City's Union Station in a bright sun with a snow covering the landscape. A Frisco photographer snapped a photo of the train about to leave Oklahoma City, another two photographs at Bristow, and another while the train paused in front of the depot at Sapulpa."

    On the page opposite the text is a copy of the photograph in question identifying its location as Bristow. The article goes on to state "The photos often misidentify the train and its location - even though the complete story with accompanying photos was written up in the April 1948 issue of All Aboard, the Frisco in-house employee magazine."

    If anyone has access to that edition of All Aboard, that would be further confirmation.

    Rich
     
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