4-8-4 SLSF 4524

Discussion in '4-8-4 Northern' started by paul, Oct 20, 2002.

  1. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Don,

    Excellent response.

    As evidence for what Don is saying, look what "they" did to my all-time favorite Frisco steam locomotive, 4-8-2 SLSF 1501, in Rolla, in the early 1980s.

    It is good the town-folk gave her a much needed paint job. The SLSF 1501 had not been painted since the Frisco did it in 1956 before donating it.

    But my goodness folks, what were you thinking?

    Ken
     

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  2. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    All of this has caused me to think back about when we were in Springfield with the 4-8-2 SLSF 1522 for the Frisco Museum function.

    I got into a heated discussion with a guy who was maybe 5 years older than me who insisted the 1500s were painted green and he remembered seeing them that way.

    I think that was also the time I was visiting with Ed Heiss and Lee Buffington and told them if I went to the hardware store and bought the black paint, could they pick the lock on the 4524 gate and I would fix it.

    They were not happy with it either, especially Lee.
     
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  3. ashnme

    ashnme locoengr

    Don, this all got started with a young man that has only been to the museum a few times and has really never worked on the project except to hand tools to the men doing the real work. Nothing had been decided about the smoke box when he posted and he is not a member of the board of directors just a volunteer.

    The smoke box will be painted the flat black color, and you cannot believe how hard it is to find a paint and the flat color needed. We have looked for 2 days and have yet to find one that matches or is close to the pictures we have. Again we have a lot of pictures and most look different depending on the time and shop or location taken.

    Again our biggest problem at the museum is finding people to staff and help even with the smallest things. You would think that in a town the size of Springfield and the history with the Frisco that we would have a line of people wanting to help but there are Saturdays that we have just enough people to open the gate. If the number continues to decline the 4524 will become just a park engine to be looked at from outside of a fence.

    The volunteers we are looking for do not need to have worked for a railroad or know much about one just have a desire to learn and visit with the visitors. It is 2 hours once a week or less and if someone has more time there is always something to do. We do have two ladies this year who are helping and would like to have as many as possible.

    May is almost filled with birthday parties for kids and they are always excited to come to the museum and park. And we are always glad to have them. There are no paid staff at the museum and all of our money comes from donations. Also the admission is free.

    Bill Houser
    President Railroad Historical Museum
    Springfield, MO
     
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  4. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    The smokebox and firebox sides on Frisco engines were graphite, not black.

    The cab roof was always red.

    The rest of the engine and tender was painted black.
     
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  5. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Richard,

    You might wish to rethink those facts.

    There are color photographs around that are contrary to your statement.
     
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  6. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    I agree with Karl.

    Red cab roofs were never painted on the 4500s, and they used either a black heatproof paint, or very dark graphite on the smokebox/fireboxes of the 4500s.

    I am not sure what kind of paint you are using on the 4524, but Rustoleum makes both a Satin Black and a Flat Black oil enamel. Whatever you are using, you should be able to get a flattish black paint shade in it.

    The only cab roofs on 4500s that were other than black were the 4500-4502, which were a light gray color with the Meteor paint scheme.

    Post Hungerford, they were black engines throughout with Dulux Yellow numbers.

    The rest of the freight use 4500s were black with white numbers.
     
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  7. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    I did not know that the cab roofs on the 4500's were not painted red.

    However, as Don states above, the smokebox, and fireboxes were painted graphite, and it is not black.

    Look at the Frisco 4-8-2 SLSF 1522.
     
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  8. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    Here is a photograph of the 4-8-4 SLSF 4524

    If you look closely, you will see that the firebox is a graphite gray.

    I do not know why the smokebox is so dark.
     

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  9. renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013)

    renapper (Richard Napper RIP 3/8/2013) Passed away March 8, 2013

    I do not know if the side rods and running gear on the 4500's were stainless steel or not.

    Probably not; however, the running gear was never painted for safety reasons. It would hide any flaws in the steel, same reason couplers and wheels are never painted.

    I believe they were oiled with waste while they were in service, so please do not paint them silver again, perhaps a clear stain for protection but not paint.

    The Frisco did not paint wheel tires white or silver either,. They and the whole wheel should be black.

    The 4-8-2s SLSF 1501 and SLSF 1527 are sure in a sad state, I agree.
     
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  10. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Richard,

    Fortunately, 4-8-4 SLSF 1501 in Rolla has been repainted at least once since.

    Though not at all perfect, it at least returned the locomotive to an appearance close to reality. But, it is still sad.

    I cannot bear to look at it for long because of all the stuff that has been stolen from it or broken by vandals.

    When I graduated from MSM in 1964, SLSF 1501 still looked largely the same as Baldwin and the Frisco shops made her.

    Not so now.

    Ken
     
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  11. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Be careful using black and white photographs when trying to establish variations in color;.

    That is especially true when dealing the multitude of angles, which are found on a steam locomotive.

    Case in point, the firebox on the 4-8-4 SLSF 4524 is jacketed, and most likely black.
     
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  12. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Richard,

    I am afraid that I do not see graphite gray on the firebox of 4-8-4 SLSF 4524 in your photograph.

    On the 4500s the boiler jacketing extended down over the sides of the firebox and would have been painted the same black enamel as the rest of the boiler. Only the unjacketed part of the firebox front, bottom and the tiny bit of the sides that extended below the jacketing would have been graphite.

    Graphite was only used on surfaces that would get so hot that paint would burn off. Why the Frisco used such a dark graphite on the smokeboxes of the 4500s is something I cannot answer, but I have never seen a photograph of a 4500 with the much lighter gray graphite that seems to have been the norm.

    I have seen photographs that suggest the 4-8-2 4300s and 4400s may have sometimes gotten the dark graphite, also for all other classes.

    I think Don's suggestion of a paint to use that would simulate the look of dark graphite is a good one.

    Gordon
     
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  13. TeenRailroader4524

    TeenRailroader4524 Keeping steam alive!

    As Bill stated, I may help.

    But I do not do the heavy work. Now I will not say I prefer not to do work, because I have offered my fare share of things I can do. But respecting Bill's wishes, as well as fellow volunteers, I stand aside to not mess up the engine or cause any conflicts.

    Also, the fact I have school and drive an hour from Branson to Springfield and with gas prices the way they are, I can only make it once or twice a week. Combined with city driving this totals to around 45 miles each way.

    In conclusion, I would like to say we may think what we want about what looks good or not, but if it pleases the visitors, that is what matters. Now this does not mean on special occasions like photograph sessions or open houses, the counterweights and tires cannot be painted. But again, this is left to the decisions of the board.

    Rest assured, the Railroad History Museum is in good hands. And in 2011, with the basic cosmetic restoration of 4-8-4 SLSF 4524 out of the way, has been the start of a "revolution" for the museum.

    If Bill has not all ready mention this, we will be have opening day for the year on May 7th, This will actually mark our first opening that takes place on National Train Day. Also the first with our revived Northern.

    Anyone reading this is more then welcome to stop by and see our baby in its prime!

    God bless to all of you!

    Dominique Hogue
     
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  14. U-3-b

    U-3-b Member Frisco.org Supporter

    Dominique,

    Are you saying that it is okay to paint something wrong because it pleases the public?

    Having been in the business of museums and educating the public for over 22 years, that goes against everything museum professionals are taught.

    True, there are some really bad museums out there that reinforce misconceptions that the public has on just about every topic there is. That does not make it right. The purpose of museums is to educate the public and tell them the truth about whatever the subject matter is.

    In my case, I have worked in, developed, managed museums that in some cases have challenged some of the visitors ideas of what they learned in school and they have come away with a different understanding. While they may not always agree with what was presented, it was the truth as everything had been reviewed by professionals in the field.

    By the way, saying you can always paint something or change something for an special event hardly ever works out. It may be done once or twice, but generally once something is done it stays that way for many years. Just look at all of the horribly painted steam engines around the country.

    That is my two cents. Since I do not live a close to Springfield, MO anymore, and more than likely will not ever again, do what you want.

    Steve Black
     
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  15. sunnyland

    sunnyland Sunnyland

    Been reading all of this with interest.

    I come from a Frisco family and I agree that the engine should be left as it was originally
    purchased and ran "on the main".

    Bill,

    I am sorry that I am not closer as I would enjoy getting involved with the museum and helping, but it is just too far.

    I hope to visit someday. I also hope that you are able to keep the museum going.

    I have looked at the website picture. It is much nicer to have people to show visitors around and explain things than to just look at SLSF 4524 behind a fence.

    I visited Springfield for the first time last fall with a local railroad group and finally got to see the Frisco Building. I was very excited to see the name and took pictures.
     
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  16. frisco1522

    frisco1522 Staff Member Staff Member

    Here is a shot of the 4-8-4 SLSF 4505 in transit to the Frisco.

    It shows the "in service" paint scheme for clarification.
     

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  17. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Super photo Don!

    The smoke box has a glossy finish before the engine has been fired up very much.

    Tom
     
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  18. Sirfoldalot

    Sirfoldalot Frisco.org Supporter Frisco.org Supporter

    Yes, super photograph.

    It is a crying shame that the telephone pole had to be right in front of the "FFF" logo. :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
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  19. meteor910

    meteor910 2009 Engineer of the Year Staff Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I can only imagine the thrill it must have been to be standing trackside when one of these 4500's came hammering by!

    Woooo!

    K
     
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  20. ashnme

    ashnme locoengr

    The Frisco 4-8-4 SLSF 4524 is 99.9% complete in its new paint and cosmetic restoration.

    The Frisco.org convention is close and the old girl is ready to show off.

    The Railroad Historical Museum, Inc. will be hosting an open house for the convention and hope to see all of you at the museum.

    Bill Houser
    President
     

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