Passenger Car Assignments - Texas Special, Meteor, Firefly - 1957-1958

Discussion in 'Passenger Operations' started by TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020), Sep 23, 2011.

  1. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    This from a Frisco Passenger Car Assignment list from 1957.

    Frisco route St. Louis to Vinita.

    A--Baggage-Storage Mail............SLSF 385, 2043, MKT 2651
    B--RPO-Baggage.........................SLSF 208, MKT 229, 1000
    C--Chair car (Partitioned)...........SLSF 1259, MKT 1202, 1203
    D--Chair-Lounge-Buffet..............SLSF 1652, MKT 1300, 1301
    E--Chair (Partitioned)..................SLSF 1071, MKT 900 class (2 cars)
    F--Diner........................................SLSF 650
    G--Sleeper.....................................SLSF (1 car), MKT (1 car), B&O (1 car)
    H--Sleeper.....................................SLSF (1 car), MKT (2 cars), PRR (2 cars)
    I--Sleeper......................................SLSF (2 cars), MKT (1 car)
    J--Observation-Lounge-Sleeper...SLSF 1350, MKT 496, 1400

    SLSF 208, 385, 1071, 2043 and MKT 229, 496, 900 class, 2651, 2664 are all heavyweight cars.

    All cars except F to MKT at Vinita.
    10 cars - St. Louis to Springfield
    9 cars - Springfield to Vinita

    Frisco Car Limit:
    St. Louis-Springfield: 2 unit E7A (EA7) - 17 cars; 2 unit E8A - 18 cars.
    Springfield-Vinita: 2 unit E7A (EA7) - 18 cars; 2 unit E8A - 19 cars.

    MKT Car Limit:
    2 unit E7A (EA7) - 16 cars; 2 unit E8A - 16 cars.

    B--Passenger baggage & storage mail.
    G--From B&O train No 1 at St. Louis.
    H--From PRR train No 3 at St. Louis.
    J--2 Lightweight Observation-Lounge-Sleepers, MKT heavyweight lounge.

    A-B-C-D-E-I-J--St. Louis, MO to San Antonio, TX
    F--St. Louis to Springfield, MO.
    G--Washington, DC to Dallas, TX
    H--New York City, NY to San Antonio, TX

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024
  2. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    This is from a selected Texas Special consist from May 26th, 1958.

    Note quite a change in about one year! This consist is from the route segment Springfield to Denison, Texas.

    MKT 151A, ALCO PA-1 - St. Louis-Denison, TX
    MKT 123C, EMD FP7A - St. Louis-Denison, TX

    SLSF 208 - 30' RPO-Baggage - St. Louis-Denison, TX
    SLSF 2043 (ex-RPO) Storage Mail - St. Louis-Ft. Worth, TX
    MP 4169 - Baggage - Muskogee-San Antonio
    MKT 2653 - Baggage - Muskogee-San Antonio, via Ft. Worth, TX
    MKT 50 - Storage Mail - Muskogee-Dallas, TX
    MKT 231 - RPO-Baggage as Storage Mail - Muskogee, OK-San Antonio, via Dallas
    MKT 1205 - Chair Car - St. Louis-San Antonio
    SLSF 1651 - Chair Car-Buffett-Lounge - St. Louis-San Antonio
    MKT 438 - Diner - Muskogee, OK-San Antonio, TX
    MKT 906 - Chair Car - Muskogee, OK-San Antonio, TX
    MKT B R Milam - 14-4 Sleeper - St. Louis-San Antonio, TX
    SLSF G G Vest - 14-4 Sleeper - Washington, DC-San Antonio, TX
    PRR Tioga Rapids - 10-6 Sleeper - New York City, NY-San Antonio, TX

    Cars SLSF 208, 2043, MKT 50, 231, 438, 906, 2653 and MP 4169 are all heavyweights.
    Car SLSF 208 painted red and silver shadow line scheme.
    Note no observation or lounge car. These were discontinued Fall 1958 and run irregularly at times before being discontinued.
    At Denison, TX the Katy split with separate lines to Dallas and Ft. Worth. These routes rejoined at Hillsboro, TX, north of Waco, on the way to San Antonio, TX. Thus the "via Dallas" or "via Ft. Worth" routings for the baggage and storage mail cars. The primary routing of the Texas Special train to San Antonio was through Dallas.

    Note: Cars marked "baggage" were very likely "working mail", "storage mail" or Railway Express Agency (REA). Passenger baggage was usually carried where the train's baggage man was riding, likely in the baggage compartment of the combination RPO-baggage cars.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  3. Joseph Toth

    Joseph Toth Member

    This is a reminder to all members who have not yet ordered their copy of the TRRA Publication #69 on the Texas Special.

    There are less than 100 copies left. This count is almost a year old. I ordered two copies! One "working" and one for my library. These two were ordered after the 100 remaining copies, so consider it at "98" now. LOL

    This publication can stand alone but is a great supplement to the Frisco and Katy books that have been printed to date with Texas Special coverage.

    Don´t delay, order your copy today! Check their site on the Frisco.org menu in the upper left hand margin and you go straight to it and get the information on this excellent publication.

    Joe Toth
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  4. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Tom

    Good stuff!

    One very small detail, PRR Tioga Rapids was a 10-6, not a 10-5. The PRR 10-5's were in the "Cascade" series, two of which were the original cars assigned the TS and painted red-and-shadow line, but they had been replaced by 1957 with the more modern "Rapids" series 10-6's.

    Are other trains covered by that assignment list?

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  5. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    There's some more info, but it's almost illegible.

    I have to eyeball it and re-type it. I'll try to get to some more later.

    I'll correct the PRR sleeper.

    Thanks,

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  6. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Train No 9, The Meteor, 7/15/1957

    St. Louis - Lawton, OK

    Car Assignments

    A. 309, 236 - Baggage - Springfield-Ft. Smith, AR
    B. 430, 432 - Baggage - St. Louis-Paris, TX
    C. 431, 437 - Baggage - St. Louis-OKC
    D. 251, 252 - 30' RPO-Baggage - St. Louis-OKC
    E. 371 - Baggage - OKC-Lawton, OK
    F. 224 - 15' RPO-Baggage - OKC-Lawton, OK
    G. 1091, 1095 - Dorm-Chair Car - St. Louis-OKC
    H. 765, 1651 - Chair Car - St. Louis-OKC
    (Line H is a mistake, it should probably read Chair-Buffet-Lounge and have 1650 or 1652 as the second car, 765 is a heavyweight chair car OR have another chair car instead of 1651)
    I. 1257, 1258 - Chair Car - St. Louis-Lawton, OK
    J. 94 - Sleeper Car - St. Louis-Lawton, OK (2 Cars)
    K. 93 - Sleeper Car - St. Louis-OKC (2 Cars)
    L. 92 - Sleeper Car - St. Louis-Tulsa (2 Cars)
    M. 97 - Sleeper Car - St. Louis-Ft. Smith, AR (2 Cars)
    N. 1550, 1551 - Diner-Lounge-Observation - St. Louis-Lawton, OK

    224, 309, 346, 371, 430, 431, 432, 437, 765 (if correct), 1091 and Sleeper 97 are all heavyweight cars.

    A. Operates Monett-Ft. Smith on train No 709. Returns Ft. Smith-Springfield on trains Nos 704-4. Sealed Springfield to Monett.
    B. Operates Monett-Paris on train No 709. Returns Paris-St. Louis on train Nos 704-4.
    M. Operates Monett-Ft. Smith on train no 709. Returns Ft. Smith-St. Louis on train Nos 704-10.

    Number of cars:
    11 cars - St. Louis-Springfield
    12 cars - Springfield-Monett
    9 cars - Monett-Tulsa, Monett-OKC
    8 cars - Tulsa-OKC, OKC-Lawton
    5 cars - OKC-Lawton

    Frisco Car Limits.
    St. Louis-Springfield: 2 unit E7A (EA7) - 17 cars; 2 unit E8A - 18 cars
    Springfield-Monett: 2 unit E7A (EA7) - 20 cars; 2 unit E8A - 21 cars
    Monett-Tulsa, Monett-OKC: 2 unit E7A (EA7) - 20 cars; 2 unit E8A - 22 cars; 1 unit E7A (EA7) - 11 cars; 1 unit E8A - 12 cars
    Tulsa-OKC, OKC-Lawton: 2 unit E7A (EA7) - 17 cars; 2 unit E8A - 18 cars

    Number of cars
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024
  7. gbmott

    gbmott Member

    Tom

    Thanks.

    You knew what I wanted to see! It is possible line H is not a mistake. I see 1652 was assigned to the TS at this time and it is possible that 1650 was out of service for shopping for some reason. It is sort of surprising that they would assign a straight coach in this line rather than a heavyweight coach-buffet, but that's something we'll probably never know.

    I was also interested to see the car limits set for OKC-Monett. I have always contended that in the early days of operation of the streamlined Meteor, before delivery of the E8A's, that two E7A's operated St. Louis-Monett with the pair then split and one each going to OKC and Paris.

    The only photographic evidence I have seen of the Meteor with a single unit is the Preston George shot between Tulsa and OKC that is in the Collias book. There were two sleepers set out at Tulsa, so between Monett and Tulsa there would normally have been at least 10 cars, or 11 if there was also a Tulsa set-out baggage/express car.

    So now I have confirmation that, in fact, that was possible as an E7A was rated for 11 cars. The Preston George shot is of a single E8A, so apparently the practice continued, as least south of Tulsa, for some period of time after delivery of the E8A's, but I don't think it was too long before two units began operating all the way through.

    In fact, all the way to Lawton based on another published photograph. While apparently possible, I have to think that a single E7A was struggling to handle 11 cars, 4 of them heavyweight, between Monett and Tulsa.

    Gordon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  8. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Gordon,

    I think you're correct about the earlier practice of splitting the pair of Meteor units at Monett, sending one to Paris, or Ft. Smith at least, and the other to OKC.

    Besides the Preston George photo, there's an early aerial photo of the Meteor in Oklahoma by the Tulsa newspaper editor, with an unusual name (Forget name??), who was an air buff, but liked to take aerial RR photos. The train had a single silver side E7A. Therefore, it was before 1950 and a few cars, all lightweight, but with one heavyweight baggage, also a B&O sleeper.

    This flyer/photographer/editor's photo appeared in an early trains magazine, but I can't reference the date just now. I don't have any consists showing dividing the units at Monett, but maybe we can find something later on.

    As for the scrambled assignments of the chair-buffet-lounge cars (1650-1651-1652), there's a photo in Ray George's "M-K-T Lines In Color" book of the Texas Special at the platform in Waco, if I remember, with one of the Frisco C-B-L cars. The photo has Ray's dad holding a grandchild and chatting with the Katy conductor.

    Terry

    There are some Frisco passenger consists showing car numbers on the Yahoo Passenger Consist Group. I referenced them in an earlier thread. There's also the 1956 assignment list scanned among the FMIG newsletters. That list has which heavyweight cars were painted red and silver and you can construct consists using the list.

    As for the car window numbers, I had only seen them before in public timetables.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  9. mktjames

    mktjames Member

    Good stuff.

    New information for me on the TS. I had only found the MKT PA-1 listing going into St. Louis as to the time when the E8's were bought and thought they had gone to the mail trains after that.

    I did not know the listing for them was carried all the way to 1957 even by the SLSF.

    mktjames
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  10. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    There are a lot of pictures in daylight of single Katy engines parked at the St. Louis Union Station, those were very likely the Katy Flyer's engines laying over.

    The Texas Special units, Frisco's or Katy's, were serviced by the Frisco at Lindenwood. Katy engines "sometimes" ran to St. Louis on the Texas Special and Frisco engines "sometimes" ran as far south as Waco.

    This wasn't a regular practice, but the product of the companies trading off mileage.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  11. mktjames

    mktjames Member

    The new information listing is not for a single PA-1 engine used on the mail train Katy Flyer, I have those listings and many pictures.

    This was for the TS of MKT PA-1 151A and MKT FP7A 123C used in 1957. I did not know they had been used that late in premium service and thought they all had been reassigned to the Katy Flyer and Bluebonnet in late 1950, when E8A 106 A&C and early 1951 when 107 A&C were added to the Katy motive power.

    Lets see I got to add something about SLSF for this thread. I will be able to use my single SLSF E7A for the OKC or Paris split.

    mktjames
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  12. yardmaster

    yardmaster Administrator Staff Member Administrator Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom,

    Superb stuff.

    This is the type of information that makes me swoon.

    Many, many thanks for preserving and sharing!

    Best Regards,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  13. Friscotony

    Friscotony Member

    Tom, great job.

    Keep up the good work and bring on more.

    This is what I like to see on the site, not complaints about whatever.

    Tony
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  14. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Another Texas Special consist.

    Train No 2, August 5th, 1958.

    Denison, TX to Springfield, MO.

    Engines:
    MKT 151A - ALCO PA-1 - Denison-Muskogee
    MKT 122B - EMD F7B - Denison-Muskogee

    SLSF 5042 - FP7A - Muskogee-Springfield
    SLSF 2003 - E7A - Muskogee-Springfield

    Cars:
    SLSF 211 - 30' RPO-Baggage
    SLSF 2043 - ex 60' RPO / Mail Storage - Muskogee-Springfield
    MKT 2658 - Baggage - Denison-Muskogee
    MKT 2663 - Baggage - Denison-Muskogee
    MKT 2653 - Baggage - Denison-Muskogee
    MKT 227 - RPO as Mail Storage - Denison-Muskogee
    MKT 1206 - Chair Car
    SLSF 1252 - Chair Car
    MKT 438 - Diner - Denison-Muskogee
    MKT 917 - Chair Car
    MKT B R Milam - Sleeper
    B&O Marsh Brook - Sleeper
    PRR Tioga Rapids - Sleeper
    MKT 400 - Business Car - Denison-Muskogee
    SLSF 462 - Baggage (Deadhead) - Denison-Springfield

    SLSF 211, 462, 2043 and MKT 227, 400, 438, 917, 2653, 2658, 2663 are all heavyweight cars.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2024
  15. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Train No 9, The Meteor - 9/17/57

    St. Louis to Monett.

    SLSF 2005 - EMD E7A (EA7)
    SLSF 2008 - EMD E8A

    SLSF 432 - Baggage - St. Louis-Ft. Smith
    SLSF 364 - Baggage - St. Louis-OKC
    SLSF 251 - RPO-Baggage - St. Louis-OKC
    SLSF 1401 - Lounge - St. Louis-OKC
    SLSF 1095 - Dorm-Chair Car - St. Louis-OKC
    SLSF 765 - Chair Car - St. Louis-OKC
    SLSF 1256 - Chair Car - St. Louis-Lawton
    SLSF 1506 - Diner-Lounge - St. Louis-Lawton
    SLSF James River - 14-4 Sleeper - St. Louis-Lawton
    SLSF Canadian River - 14-4 Sleeper - St. Louis-OKC
    SLSF Eugene Field - 14-4 Sleeper - St. Louis-Tulsa
    SLSF Villa Superb - 10-3 Sleeper - St. Louis-Ft. Smith
    SLSF 346 - Baggage (Mail) - Springfield-Ft. Smith

    Cars 346, 364, 432, 765, 1401, 1506, Villa Superb are all heavyweight.

    Evidently 1401 was subbing for the Chair-Buffet-Lounge and 1506 was subbing for the Observation-Diner-Lounge.
    The "baggage" cars were most likely working mail, storage mail or Railway Express Agency. Passenger baggage was probably carried in the baggage compartment of the RPO-Baggage 251. Note the Fort Smith "Baggage" car tacked on tail end for easier switching at Monett.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024
  16. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    One more:

    Trains No 117-118, The Firefly - 4/8/1957

    Car Assignments for Ft. Scott to Tulsa

    A. SLSF 209, 217 - 30' RPO-Baggage
    B. SLSF 82, 83 - 15' RPO-Baggage-Chair Car (original steam era streamlined Firefly cars)
    C. SLSF 751, 772, 773 - Chair Cars
    ...............................................................................................
    B. RPO inactive. (This answers the question why many photos of No 117-118 show two RPO cars!)
    C. Pool trains Nos 117, 118, 517, 518 - Kansas City-Tulsa-Dallas

    117-118 combined with 107-108 between Kansas City and Ft. Scott.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024
  17. Karl

    Karl 2008 Engineer of the Year Frisco.org Supporter

    Tom,

    This answer begets another question.

    If the RPO-Baggage is used solely as a baggage car, why not use a full baggage car?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024
  18. TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020)

    TAG1014 (Tom Galbraith RIP 7/15/2020) Passed Away July 15, 2020 Frisco.org Supporter

    Beats me, SLSF 82 and 83 were Coach-Baggage-RPO combines but, maybe they only needed so much baggage or mail space and the extra coach space might have come in handy?

    I had earlier guessed that there might have been a lot of Frisco, Railway Mail and Railway Express Agency employees deadheading between Kansas City, Ft. Scott and Tulsa?

    In Springfield, there were quite a few Railway Mail clerks that ran on the KC-Memphis line and they had to deadhead on passes to Kansas City.

    Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024
  19. gstout

    gstout Member Frisco.org Supporter

    I understand that it is an article of faith that both the METEOR and the TEXAS SPECIAL were "classic" trains, Art Dubin said so.

    In the heavyweight era I guess they were, but looking over the consists posted by my friend Tom, it is evident that the glory days for both had passed by the late 1950s.

    I am trying to think how many flagship trains were discontinued before 1960, and I come up with the Texas Special, North Western Limited, Royal Blue, and ... what? Can anybody name another?

    GS
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024
  20. Joseph Toth

    Joseph Toth Member

    The downgrade of the Texas Special was a pity.

    I always thought it should have carried dome cars. The model railroad manufactures did a good job of outfitting the train with domes of course. The Frisco leg of the trip through the Ozarks would have brought out the sheer beauty of them in a dome car!

    I cannot list all the flagship passenger trains that were either discontinued or downgraded like the Texas Special but it is ironic that some roads like the Santa Fe, Northern Pacific, the Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line continued to operate first class trains. Even after the ACL and SAL merged to form the Seaboard Coast Line, the trains remained "clean machines" up to the birth of Amtrak.

    Too bad the Frisco couldn´t have created a St. Louis-Dallas/Ft. Worth train after pulling out of the Texas Special operation with the Katy. It could have operated with the GM&O and captured the Chicago market too since the GM&O operated several trains on a daily basis from Chicago to St. Louis.

    Seems like the Ozark scenery would have sold itself when compared to the Santa Fe´s Texas Chief on the Chicago-D/FW run.

    Joe Toth
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2024

Share This Page