I just noticed that my Registration Date at Frisco.org is the same date that I graduated from T.R. Robinson High School in Tampa, Florida, in 1964! This means I have been enjoying a lot of Frisco "stuff" for little more than 3 months now. I am still in the process of going back down the line to read through older posts. So, please forgive me if I happen to post something on a subject that has already been discussed. Looking over the GP7 dispositions it has occurred to me that it does not seem to have been updated recently. Is it really a fact that there does not seem to be any preserved Frisco GP7s? If this is correct it seems to me that this is the time, if it is not already too late, to secure one or more and restore same in the as delivered black and yellow! The GP7s went everywhere, including ones assigned to the subsidiaries. In the event the staff and members can promote a plan to save a Frisco GP7, where should it be displayed? Of course it must be remembered that to purchase one would require donations from all members at large. Currently, I am what is called an Armchair Model Railroader. I have been conducting a study of sorts to determine the best scale to use when I do construct my terminal switching pike along my 18 foot living room wall. I am in the beginning stages to sell off most of my railroad books and a couple of "stranded" non-Frisco brass HO locomotives to finance the layout project. In view of this fact, I would be willing to donate $100.00 to the GP7 fund! I think the money would be worth while, even if it means that driving the first spike on my pike would be pushed somewhat into the future. I would appreciate it if Frisco Mike and the officers discuss this matter and perhaps post a poll to determine the overall interest in preserving what I think is a most important part of Frisco history when they dieselized. I understand that many members cannot make a donation "Johnny on the spot" and perhaps can, like me, sell off some of their collections that they do not consider the ultiment "must keep" items to help finance this project. Books, paper, models, hardware, what have you, all adds up to help save a GP7! Thanks y'all! Joe Toth The Trinity River Bottoms Boomer
Amtrak is a regular advertiser in Tim Blackwell's Southwestern regional magazine, "The Cowcatcher", so perhaps he could make "first contact" to see if it can be saved when retired? Will contact him and ask. Maybe it is not too late after all? Joe Toth
The Wichita Tillman & Jackson started operations with several ex-CNW, nee Frisco, GP7s. If I recall correctly, they were all eventually chop nosed. I also believe they are still on the roster.
There is a chop nosed former Frisco GP7 that ICG rebuilt into a Paducah GP8 on the Little Rock and Western (LR&W). Not much more than the original hood and underframe on it though, all the other parts were add-ons with the rebuild. Ship it on the Frisco! Murphy Millican
In the event a former Frisco GP7 could be secured, even if it has been chop nosed, I think it is well worth the effort. Perhaps the A&M or FW&W could perform the work required to bring it back to its black and yellow glory? A private owned NYO&W NW2, after being restored to its Old Woman livery, was leased to the NYS&W. This might even be possible with a Frisco.org owned diesel as well? Indeed, there are the legal issues that need to be taken into consideration but with quite a few museums operating locomotives there should be no reason why Frisco.org cannot realize the opportunity to preserve a historic diesel as well! On a personal note, I am not trying to force this issue, but send out a message to obtain what the members think about the possibility of owning a genuine Frisco GP7 to give the society a special collectors item all can enjoy. Perhaps the idea is too far fetched on my part taking the legal "red tape" conditions under consideration. If so the next step would be to approach a railroad operating former Frisco track to see if they might be interested in obtaining a former Frisco GP7 with Frisco.org financing the cosmetic restoration and having said railroad operate the unit during conventions or on special railfan days organized by the society. Members who donate $100.00 for example, for the restoration, would be issued a Frisco Pass to enjoy one free ride for the initial trip when the diesel is placed into service and a member discount for rides on additional trips if taken. The Pass would be renewable each year for a fee to be determined by the Officers of Frisco.org. Thus, a new Yearly Pass would be issued upon payment of the fee. In this event there would be no free ride option after the first year after the initial run of the GP7 were operated but a discount towards one trip at each railfan day excursion would be permitted for Pass holders. Additional trips would require "full fare" tickets to help finance the convention or railfan days. Frisco Folks, what do you think? Is either way possible? Anyway one looks at it, saving a Frisco GP7 seems well worth the effort to me. Joe Toth
I think the idea was stillborn. Despite the relatively large number of people that are registered, we had very few willing to drop $25-30, plus travel expenses, of their own money for their own enjoyment last weekend. There is also a distinct, noticeable lack of voices on this thread.
About thirty years ago I was working for the then Illinois Central Gulf (ICG) Railroad as a "marketing representative" for the Paducahbilt program. This basically involved selling rebuilt locomotives to the many short lines that had spun out of various bankruptcies and consolidations that were taking place at the time. This included ex-Rock Island branch lines serving grain elevators and such. At the time, remember it was 1980, the cost of a completely rebuilt locomotive was into the low six figures. What is being proposed here is not a viable undertaking unless we can round up about 2,000 people willing to kick in $100 each. It is a nice idea, but well beyond the scope of an organization such as this one. I would guess even a simple cosmetic restoration, and that assumes finding a suitable high short hood, could run $30-40K by the time you pay a real railroad with real technicians to do the job. GS
I am sure the current economic situation worldwide has put the skids under a lot of projects that have been proposed by many historical societies and museum operators alike. I often wonder why some organizations that are located in a common geological location have not proposed "merging" to combine resources and financial support much needed to continue to maintain everything from depots and equipment. I am aware that even the regional and short line railroad operators are feeling the results of the economical recession and currently are also not in a sound position to acquire and restore a former Frisco GP7. Perhaps this will change in the not too distant future while a GP7 can still be set aside for possible preservation. Perhaps the Museum of the American Railroad and the Ft. Worth and Western could be approached after the museum's move from Fair Park in Dallas to Frisco? It would be most fitting to have a Frisco GP7 join the "family" along side the two Frisco steam locomotives. A caboose too. Am I asking for too much? Perhaps this could be a joint Frisco.org project with the museum and railroad? Joe Toth
I do not know about other folks, but I for one am not interested in any more "museum" ventures! I got all of that I wanted from the late and not so great Frisco Museum. Where the members and public were basically financing the museum president's personal collection! The SLSF 4524 booster group is very fortunate to have a sufficient group of volunteers to make their project a success. I also think they were extremely lucky to already have their equipment in place and did not have to go "shopping" for a locomotive. Tom
I would hope this matter does not die stillborn. And I speak from a membership viewpoint where I will have nothing to gain and less to offer save money. I am wheelchair bound, I would never get a ride. Same wheelchair health kept me from last two conventions. But if this topic were to be allowed to be thought over, even set on a side burner it might stand a better chance. One or two days of talk will not cut it but if review and debate were tolerated this beats a diner or chair car. The black and yellow GP7 to many of us really was Frisco. But in other volunteer organizations I have supervised smaller efforts where people get mad and take their toys in a huff and go home. Is a project that could take ten years if lucky and lots of cussing, discussing and headache. I would like to live long enough to see it. It might well promote a forward path for us other than getting picky on Chinese made smaller GP7s? Ricky
While this thread is not closed yet, I will say, Keith that some voices have been silenced on other threads because you chose to close the thread. I was going to respond to the GP35 thread, but you had already closed it. I thought this forum was to discuss issues and pass on information as it became available, but by closing that thread, that will not happen without starting another one. Someone commented a few weeks ago about moderators closing threads with more frequency lately, and I see this pattern is continuing. Please, unless there is a compelling reason to close a thread, do not do it. Terry Jankowski
I agree, the "moderators" need to leave these threads alone for some reasonable period. Not everybody agrees that restoring a GP7 locomotive is a "do-able" or even a believable possibility, but yea or nay, it certainly ought to be able to be discussed and commented on until the subject runs its course. Seems like these threads get cut off abruptly if they are not all about current HO modeling. Tom
I certainly do not want to take any issues with how this organization is operated and there will always be the yeas and neys like in any democracy. The freedom to express ones views as long as it is legitiment should be welcomed at Frisco.org and not tore apart or in the case of several threads recently, closed, before most members could read or in the case of some polls, vote. Many members have real jobs to support their families and can´t always visit this site as often as they would like. For this reason there should be a realistic time period set up for threads and polls, so most members can have an opportunity to read the current posted information and then act accordingly to a thread or poll. With so many well organized historical socities and museums in the US and Canada having received or purchased historic locomotives, equipment or structures or even right-of-way, and the fact that the GP7 is indeed a diesel that revolutionized post-WWII railroading in the US, including the Frisco, I still think that one should be preserved. The reason I raised this question was to see what the overall interest would be concerning the preservation of a Frisco geep. Diesels have been donated to historical socities and museums by railroads themselves where no private funding was needed. Two railfans in California deserve a pat on the back. These two guys rescued Southern Pacific passenger GP9 #5623 from a scrapyard and restored it to all of its Black Widow glory! It has even seen service on the Oakland Terminal! If you aren´t aware of this restoration visit www.sphts.org and pull up the site that is dedicated to this geep. The preservation of a Frisco geep could become a reality too if there were dedicated members who would take the bull by the horns and make First Contact with the railroads that still operate a former Frisco geep to determine the feasibility of getting one donated for example if it is pulled out of service and perhaps sold for scrap as in the case of the Espee geep. If no action is taken at all then a Frisco geep might never get saved. In regards to the incident where one member claims that members and the public at large were funding a museum president´s personal collection is a negitive approach to my request reguarding the preservation of a Frisco GP7 and in a round about way tends to even criticise the current officers at Frisco.org to the point they might have "personal desires" as well. I find this in bad taste and should not be brought up as a subject on this site. It appears that many modelers have forgotten that this happened some years ago at the NMRA in simular fashion. To the member who is wheelchair bound. I retired in August 2010 after spending the last twenty years of my fourty year railroad career as a passenger service represenative with Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) at the Nuremberg, Germany, passenger station. Nuremberg is where the infamous Nazi crime trials were held after WWII and where the DB Transport Museum is located as well as the city where the annual International Toy Fair is held each year, usually the end of January or the beginning of February. I spent the 20 years helping the handicapped. Around 70% were passengers who were in wheelchairs! It is a pity if Ricky cannot attend conventions because he is wheelchair bound. It might be possible for fellow members who live in Ricky´s area provide assistance to help him attend conventions. I regret that I live in Germany because if I were living in the States I would be willing to drive to your location and transport you to and from a convention! I would do this regardless of the distance involved or the price of gas at the pump. Helping a fellow Frisco.org member means much more to me than spending the money on a model locomotive! I gain in many ways much more than purchasing a piece of imported plastic! I gain a new friend who shares my same interest and this fellowship carries no price. Friendship is priceless and rewarding at the same time! I have been a member since June 8, 2011, still new to many on this site. Several have learned that I can be very outspoken at times. I do not beat around the bush nor do I want to offend anyone personally but I must admit I have noticed a few members who tend to "bicker" when they consider a thread not to be in their personal interest. Again, if any member cannot relate to a subject please by all means just skip over it but don´t put someone else down because it doesn´t fit within your category of interest. The restoration of SP GP9 #5623 was a dream by two railroad employees in California. They own the locomotive and there is good reason to believe that they too received some private unselfish donations to not only fullfill a dream by two SP fans but to also feel good inside that an SP diesel did get saved from the scrappers. This would be my dream too. Not to rivet my personal ownership name tag to the side of a Frisco GP7 but to know I helped preserve a historic diesel that served the railroad I grew up near and that I too can visit and call a "friend"! The choice to choose to unselfishly promote such a project belongs with each member´s decision. Given a choice, preserving a 1:1 scale Frisco GP7 means much more to me than a $100.00+ plastic model that I enter into a contest to get a Blue Ribbon award and my name posted on this site. I rest my case! Joe Toth THE Trinity River Bottoms Boomer of Dallas, Texas "Derailed in Deutschland" I rest my case!
In response, to the accusations that I closed the GP35 thread, I did not, nor did I intend to close this one. My intent on this thread was to spur discussion because I would like nothing better than to see Joe's idea actually happen. I have only closed threads that were blatantly solicitations for something non-Frisco or that were tending to be overly negative and reflected poorly on the group as a whole.
For the sake of discussion if nothing else, what if a non-dynamic brake equipped GP7, or even GP9 for that matter, could be located, cleaned up and painted in Frisco livery? After all, this was a very common locomotive type. Someone can expand upon this thought, but isn't there an F-unit in Oklahoma City that has been cosmetically restored to represent a black and yellow F-unit? If I remember correctly, it is not a Frisco unit per-se.
FYI, Watco owns a former Frisco GP7 that has had it nose chopped. I have been watching it to see when they might retire the unit and it may end up with the Heart of the Heartlands collection in Carona, KS. Watco also owns the former Frisco GP35 SLSF 700 which we are also looking to save someday. I will keep everyone informed of these possibilities as we move forward. John Chambers
I already mentioned that I am preparing to sell off most of my railroad books. Non-Frisco is understood! I will hold to my commitment to make an initial $100.00 donation to the GP7 Preservation Fund! I will forego purchasing any models for the time being because I sincerely believe in this cause and time is rapidly running out on GP7s in general with the exception perhaps of those units that have been extensively rebuilt to the point they are no longer an as built GP7 and really would not fulfill the purpose I proposed here. If two California railroaders can make their dream happen with a restored SP GP9, I do not understand why this great organization cannot have a dream like theirs either. Frisco.org is a great organization because it has so many dedicated members who share a common interest in one of America's great railroads. Despite my relatively short time as a member I have loved trains since age 3. My cousin can confirm this as she was 9 when I turned 3! I was not a Howard Fogg by any means but I did draw railroad tracks on Big Chief tablets! The Frisco ran behind my grandparent's small farm in Farmers Branch, Texas. I confess, I am also a Katy fan! I know several Katy fans, a couple who are members of that historical society, but the Frisco Folks have a professional web site that is constantly updated and a bunch of great people who see that it remains a site to be proud of. The Katy has a dedicated following too but I consider Frisco.org to be one of the best! Sorry Miss Katy! I loved the Frisco to the point I would visit their Tampa, Florida, off-line traffic office when my parents moved me to the Sunshine State. Finding this site was a true blessing for me. I try my very best to reply to requests for help if I can be of some assistance. A couple of times I stepped a little bit out of line. I apologized and ate crow! I would really like to see a Frisco GP7 preserved. I fully understand the current worldwide economic situation means under these circumstances it will not be an easy task by any means. But if all members support this project, the best each one can give, there is no reason why it cannot become a reality. Remember, the Frisco itself was started as a dream and grew to become a major player in the freight and passenger markets. In view of the fact that the GP7 played such an important roll in the dieselization of the line, it is only fitting that at least one machine be preserved for all members to enjoy. It could then be passed on to the future generation of railfans who either know who the Frisco was or find out about it and become interested enough to join this organization and help support it and share their interest with others. More new members help strengthen our cause and insure that it will remain for future generations to enjoy as well! Why not all pull together to not only save a GP7 but strive to make Frisco.org the best kid on the block. Is that asking too much? Joe Toth
There have been a lot of polls on various subjects on this chatboard, maybe this subject needs a poll? Tom
