Thought I'd share an extremely rare photo of Talihina, Indian Territory shortly after (or during) the construction of the Frisco through the Ouachita Mountains. FYI: Talihina was a helper station essentially throughout the steam era. Winding Stair mountain lay just to the north of Talihina. The northbound ascent of Winding Stair out of Talihina was around 1.5+ percent. The southbound ascent out of Bengal was steeper, with sections up to near 3%. What an awesome experience it must have been to see and hear these Baldwin Moguls barking up those grades!! Andre Ming
Great photo, Andre - thanks for sharing. Jim James, this reminds me a lot of what you are modeling. Best Regards,
Andre, Nice pic. Here's an early profile over the Winding Stair Mountains http://www.frisco.org/vb/showthread...-Profile-June-30-1909&highlight=winding+stair
You're welcome YM. Glad I am able to every now and then give something back to this site. Seems I receive FAR MORE that I can give here. Jim James models the TOC19 era? Karl: Yup! The profile you shared here is what I referred to above! Thanks for uploading the info!
Andre - First, if I've cracked the code, "TOC19" refers to turn of the century (e.g. early 1900s)? If so, come to think of it, Jim may be modeling more of the 1920s. Alas, my ignorance prohibits me from being able to distinguish too much between motive power and equipment of those couple of decades. Best Regards,
You're a smart man, YM! In regards to the TOC19 thing: Some years ago, I coined the term TOC for Turn Of (the) Century. In fact, I have a TOCng Yahoogroup (Turn Of the Century narrow gauge) that is filled with GREAT guys and SUPERB historians. (Of which, I ain't!) So, the little TOC moniker was working really great: Then along comes pesky Y2K, and we have ANOTHER century to deal with. SOooo... I added the "19" to reflect the turn of the 19th century. There may be a better way of describing it, but the term has worked good for me. Now, as to the not being able to detect the MAJOR changes that took place from the 1880's into the teens: Tsk, tsk! We could further break down the TOC19 era into several distinct subgroups, but I just toss it all together and (to me) "TOC19" means the 1880's through the 1900's. Us TOC'ers know where we stand amid the term in regards to our discriminating tastes. Have fun! Andre
I've decided that if the planets ever align and our busy schedule allows me to attend a Frisco convention, I will wear a dunce cap. "If the shoe fits," etc. etc. I do find that I like the look of the smaller, older motive power prevalent with TOC19 and E20C (my nomenclature for "early 20th century," not an ethanol fuel blend). I don't think I'll ever move my modeling era significantly forward, but I have not ruled out backdating further from 1943! Best Regards,
If I live to a hundred, I will never figure out that Century deal. In my book the 1800's should be the 18th century; 1900's the 19th etc!
What would be the problem of refering to a century by what it is?? Like the Nineteenth Century? 20th century? 21st? OR even referring to an exact year, like 1887? I hate that everything is reduced to initials for the benefit of illiterate high school textors! Tom
Well, it's all in the numbers ..... The 1st century was year 1 to year 100, the 2nd century was year 101 to year 200, etc. Therefore, the 19th century was year 1801 to year 1900, the 20th century was year 1901 to year 2000 and the 21st century was year 2001 to, so far, year 2011. Hopefully, the world will make it to year 2100 to end the 21st, and on to the 22nd in year 2101. K
My use of my TOC19 term is because I like SEVERAL different sub-eras among "the late 19th century and early 20th century" (did you see how much typing there was describing TOC19???). The term TOC19 was coined to be somewhat of a covering for those of us that have grouped together for the purpose of exchanging information, pictures, etc, thus, the term covers most of those with interests during that time frame, or encompassing that time frame. Take heart though, and this is very important: YOU don't have to use it. Yup, you read right! No one will force you to use the term. You are free to use, or not use, the term(s) of your choice. In fact, unless you are a railroad history enthusiast of the late 19th century into the early 20th century... you'll probably not have to face th traumatic experience of seeing the TOC19 term again! Ain't America grand? Andre
Andre have you seen any mention of the contractor who built the railroad south of Poteau? My great grandfather Clarence resigned as a deputy US marshal in Nov, 1886 and started working for that contractor as a commissary clerk. He ended up in a gun fight in the tent that was his office with a disgrunteled employee. This disagreement involved pay rate for daily labor and the gentleman got his Winchester and tried to arbitrate the amount due. Clarence had to go to Fort Smith for a hearing and was cleared of the manslaughter charges. the year was 1887. I got the transcript from the National archives . They do not mention the exact location of the gunfight. Clarence went to Smith County TN and worked on building another line there. After 1895, he and his family moved back to Poteau, where he died around 1905. I would love to see more information on building this line.
Howdy Ron! Jimmy Christenberry says "Hi!" Fascinating anecdote concerning your ancestor. I too, would LOVE to have more information (and PICTURES) of the line through Indian Territory during its construction and its early years. There was a LOT going on down there "back then". For example, they were already mining coal on the Mansfield Branch by the time the rails reached Talihina! The wife and I eat in Talihina at "Pam's Hateful Hussy Diner" (great burgers and food in general) every now and then. Across the street from Pam's there was a window display of the late 1890s-1900s photo enlargements. Some very interesting pictures were displayed. Unfortunately, the UV of the sun has been relentlessly working on them and they are almost faded to white. If I ever turn up more on the South Line, I'll be sure to share here at Frisco.org. Andre
Thanks for the map, John! As you know, my fetish is the railroading of the late 19th century. Along that vein, I highly suspect there was a small arm-strong turntable at Bengal early on. My wanderings among the history available on line indicates that at times helpers were dispatched from Talihina up and over Winding Stair, and down to Bengal to help a southbound (timetable westbound during the late 19th century). This would mean they would have to head up to Lamberson, turn on the wye (if the wye was in place early-on), then back down to Bengal to meet the train to be shoved. OR, they would leave out of Talihina running forward, and shove the southbound tender first (not a good option). OR, they would have to back all the way from Talihina to Bengal. (Another poor option.) See the issues? Up further north, the StL&SF installed turntables at Chester, Porter, and Winslow to avoid this... thus, I suspect there was a small arm-strong turntable at Bengal. (And at Talihina, too.) Andre
You think the turntables (south) were already gone by the date of the ICC valuations (maybe ca 1916 or so)?
